What happened to the suppposed 25 versions of the 512S produced ?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Kds, Jan 16, 2007.

  1. Kds

    Kds F1 World Champ

    #1 Kds, Jan 16, 2007
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    This vehicle, along with the Porsche 917, is one of my two all time favorite race cars.

    My understanding is they were built under the identical homologation rules as the 917, however the FIA was not "as" strict with Ferrari as they were with Porsche, in that there may or may not actually have been 25 examples produced. Maybe Old Guy and Napolis know.......??

    What is an example worth today ? Are any in private hands today ? Either for use in sanctioned classic racing events or personal collections ? The status of surviving 917's seem to be well documented.....but not so much with the 512S.

    I found one example linked below......but unfortunately most searchs under 512 turn up the TR variant or model cars.

    http://www.rmauctions.com/FeatureCars.cfm?SaleCode=FF07&CarID=r101
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  2. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    God i love this car ! I think one is prob worth more than 2m$ now. Jean Guikas had one sometime back. Mason has one IIRC.

    I just love that car !! S and M actually. Well the Ferraris :)
     
  3. GTE

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    yes, and the Codalunga's. Are those separate chassis' or just regular 512S with revised bodywork depending on the aero-characteristics of the track?
     
  4. GTE

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    #4 GTE, Jan 16, 2007
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  5. billnoon

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    Ferrari and Porsche were initially required under the CSIA / FIA's revised 1967 Rules to produce 50 examples.

    Porsche stepped up to bat and began doing so. Ferrari said forget it. The CSIA / FIA revised the limit to 25 examples.

    Porsche completed 25 right away and approximatey another 25 over the next two years.

    In the Fall of 1969, Ferrari cranked 17 mostly complete examples and enought bits and pieces to assemble another 8 cars. By the end of the 1970 just 20 examples were completed. The other bits and pieces were used to repair and replaced damaged cars. What was not used in the 1970 and 1971 Seasons has since become in some cases complete cars etc...

    The model was given the designation 512S, meaning 5-liters, V12 and the "S" stood for the race class "sport." At the end of the 1970 Season in order to improve and make the car more competative, they completely revised the design and the new model was given the designation, 512M. The M now standing for "modificato." Clients could buy and "M" kit or have the Factory install it for an extra fee.

    There are ten or so great examples to chase after and quite a few "bits and pieces" cars that I won't discuss.

    I have raced, played with and traded the following examples, most several times over...

    1006, 1010, 1016, 1024, 1028, 1030, 1040 and 1044

    They are my all-time favorite disc brake Sport Racing Prototype ever!

    The first Ferrari my 6-month-old son ever drove in was 1016 which I got from Bob Rapp. I took the car off the truck when it arrived and went around the block with him in the passenger seat. Three years later I was able to do 30+ laps with him strapped into the passenger seat at Willow Springs during a private test session. I am pretty sure he is the only living sole that can state that his first two rides in a Ferrari were in 512Ss!

    It was to say the least the chance of a life-time and at least the second time, a memory we will both never forget!

    I can not wait for another one of these to come my way.

    Cheers,

    Bill Noon
     
  6. billnoon

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    #6 billnoon, Jan 16, 2007
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  8. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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    Bill, that is awesome!
     
  9. GTE

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    :D

    Very nice. He is probably lost to the Ferrari-virus forever now!
     
  10. Kds

    Kds F1 World Champ

    Thanks Bill.......

    What's an exceptional example worth ?.......I'm not capable of buying one as it would tie up my entire line and be corporate suicide, I'm just curious.

    I saw these race in person at the 1971 LeMans when I was 11 years sold........became hooked on 917's and 512's ever since.
     
  11. billnoon

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    Thanks Donv!

    My crew shot video of the whole thing from begining to end starting with strapping him until the pried him out.

    We had the whole track to ourselves so about 15 laps into it, I pulled into the pits and got my camera. We stopped after the Ss and did some timer shots and thats what came out.

    To this day about once a month on Friday night my children and I put on Chad's dad's Le Mans movie and fast-forward it to the first lap. At 115db on a 64 inch hd screen its about as close as you can get to being there.

    In 04 and 06, I raced in class 4 at Le Mans with all the 512s and 917s in my 2.0-liter Porsche. Between the 1st and 2nd chicane, my clients are going by me with a speed differential well over 70mph! The sights and sounds of the 512s and 917s screaming past are impossible to describe!

    Cheers,

    Bill
     
  12. billnoon

    billnoon Formula 3
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    I would pay $2M+ in heart beat for anyone of my former cars. Not much for most of the others.

    1028 was my first and remains one of the most carefully preserved and maintained race cars I have ever encountered bar none. I got it from Jeff Lewis and after that, I never even bothered to have a car he sold me ever inspected again. His cars are treated like the priceless art-work that they have become. At the same time, he uses his cars as intended.

    Most of my clients value their cars at $3.5M+ One of them is worth closer to $5M or more but unlikely to trade hands at any price unless there is a death or divorce.

    Cheers,

    Bill
     
  13. billnoon

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    Hi KDS,

    I sold the "hippy" 917LH (Long Tail) you saw at Le Mans in 1971. They car finished 2nd that year. That was its one and only race.

    I also was able to buy and trade the 1970 Le Mans overall winner. A 917K that now lives in the collection of one of my few female clients up in Nappa Valley.

    As neat as the 917s were. They are a handfull to drive. The 512s, were impossibley easy to run and remain so today.

    Cheers,

    Bill
     
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  15. Kds

    Kds F1 World Champ

    Is that the one that placed second at LeMans ? Just curious what the race history adds as far as a premium goes.

    Looks like they are similar to the 917 market.........

    In regards to 917's, I hear way back when the Polak collection was sold that their 917 was the actual 1970 overall winner........but at the time it was not painted in the red/white Porsche Salzburg scheme. Is that true ? Because the last time I went to the PAG museum they had a 917 painted that way.....probably a different car though.

    Thanks again Bill......I really appreciate your candor here and also have a great deal of respect for Symbolic as a dealer.
     
  16. GTE

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    and how do 512 S values relate to 512 M values?

    Not that I am in the market or anything....
     
  17. Horsefly

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    What was the design flaw in the Porsche 917 that made it such a beast to drive and handle? It no doubt was designed with the best German engineering. But yet I have read several times that it was a wicked beast to handle. What went wrong?
     
  18. GTE

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    from wikipedia:

     
  19. billnoon

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    First question first... two parts...

    In my oppinion the $5M+ 512 has that kind of premium not based on race results but on presence and overall history.

    Vasek new which car he had as the invoices stated the history of each. Mr. Matsuda chose the car he did based on a race livery not race history. Vasek instead of painting the car to Mr. Matsuda's request simply had his mechanic swap chassis number tags. The sham was well known and as a result Mr. Matsuda by mistake ended up with the Le Mans winner. I had both 917s and before they were sold to end users with everyone involved's knowledge, the numbers were swapped back again to set the record straight. All parties were happy with no complaints.

    2nd question is touchy as I do not want to get into invidual histories on individual cars and get clients and potential client's upset. In my oppinion the 512S is a prettier car. The M more puposefull. Having said that, of the two 512S models that I have had, both carried "S" bodywork but had recieved full "M" upgrades under the skin. I would say value is placed more on the indivdual car's history rather than if it is a 512S, S-Sypder, Berlinetta or M etc...

    Last question, The 917s were "over-engnineered" and missed one crucial point. Porsche was trying to keep the aerodynamics as clean as possible for air penitration and maximum top speed. This they acheived with some very scary results. the car's were capable of reaching 245mph! They also had the lift qualities of a light airplane and as such were truly terrifying to drive. By 1971 with numerous body mods and some insigtfull engineering assistance from John Wyer's guys as well as Mark Donahue, the cars now generated better down-force and beat the Ferraris nearly every time.

    The 512 also had some aerodynamic issues and all through the 1970 Season, the cars sprouted winglets, lips and spoilers everywhere in order to improve the design.

    The 512s however were relatively straightforward and had the same driving tendancies at all speeds. The 917s were not very nimble at low speed and at high speed before the improvements came in were very skitish.

    Cheers,

    Bill
     
  20. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    There's a great book on the 917's:

    A French Kiss With Death
     
  21. Horsefly

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    #19 Horsefly, Jan 16, 2007
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    Interesting. Speaking of high speed LeMans cars, a long time ago, I posted this photo that was originally posted by somebody else. It shows a strange car in the LeMans(?) pit area. What is this strange looking car with the winglets/rudders? I remember that somebody recalled the type of car, but I didn't save the posting and it was probably lost in the great crash. What was the purpose of these strange looking rudders that don't seem to have any
    actual "down force" wing between them?
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  22. Kds

    Kds F1 World Champ

    Hmmmm...it's blue...so it's French maybe ? A MATRA perhaps ?

    Thanks for the book lead Jim.....I'll just bought it at Amazon.com.

    And Bill.....thanks again.
     
  23. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Panhard

    http://auta5p.car.cz/katalog/panhard/panhard_cd_03.htm
     
  24. Horsefly

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  25. Ed Niles

    Ed Niles Formula 3
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    Would someone give me a ride in a 512? Please? Thrilling to watch, and to listen to. Remember when Chris Cord drove one at a club event when he was getting started as a serious racer, listening to him go through the gears on the entrance to the corner--zing,zing,zing. (Necessary because of shift gate; no skipping gears). What coordination he had.

    Is it true that the water pump housings disintregated through time and were made of unobtanium, Bill? Oh well, I guess if you could afford the car you could afford to make new pumps.

    Be nice if someone posted pix of the body variants.
     
  26. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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  27. Horsefly

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    What is the legal status of such a car? A replica of course. But what would/does Ferrari think about the act of duplicating one of their vintage cars? If this car were to roll onto Italian soil, could it conceivably be confiscated and destroyed in the same manner as those replica Maseratis?
     

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