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What happened to the suppposed 25 versions of the 512S produced ?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Kds, Jan 16, 2007.

  1. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    #526 Marcel Massini, Feb 15, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2020
    Italian magazine "Auto Sprint", Anno X issue #20, dated 18 to 25 May 1970, reports a top speed of 344 km/h achieved during these tests.
    Drivers Arturo Merzario and Dr. Peter Schetty, engineers Giacomo Caliri and Mauro Forghieri , as well as Dr. Franco Gozzi were present. GES (Gestione Sportiva) race mechanics included Messrs. Mazzi, Rossi and Muzzarelli.
    The idea of the high speed test on the Torino-Piacenza autostrada (Santena-Villanova d'Asti) was to simulate the legendary Hunaudières straight at Le Mans. Aerodynamics (and air intakes) were tested as well as a series of rear spoilers, fins and long-tail bodywork. Total mileage driven in these two-day tests was in excess of 400 kms.
    At the time this part of the Italian motorway system belonged to the Attiva S.r.l. company.

    Marcel Massini


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  2. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    like in germany the "richtgeschwindigkeit" :)
    but I really like to know the max. speed they where going on the autostrada. sure more than 300 km/h, but how much more???
    or how fast in monza?

    sorry marcel
    just was writing same time as you
    thx for the 344 km/h
    and also for the additonal info :)

    so nearly as fast as I was once going with my competition on the german autobahn :) :) :)
     
  3. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    See post #526.

    Marcel Massini
     
  4. GIOTTO

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  5. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    11 April 1970, Ickx and Giunti testing long tail with chassis #1022, time was 3 m 34.00.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  6. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
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    Sport is dangerous and I was away from my computer with a broken arm. But thanks for all your effort/recommendations and interesting to learn that Manfred Lampe's summary in Prancing Horse magazine #59/60 of 1980 had put all wrong, although he had as 'Mr. 512S' unlimited access to all unmolested Ferrari documents. Yes, we are forty years later, but it seems, that with the rising values and Classiche, the situation got not cleared but more stirred. And of course, with undisclosed documents nobody can check if they contain more anecdotes or not (beside that 'secrets' are not part of any scientific approach proposed here by some). For me, as an innocent onlooker, the relevant questions are still unchanged: on what base and causal chain had Ferrari certified Mr Houghton's creation as '1004'? Who from Ferrari with what authority and upon what request and documentation had confirmed 2002 in writing and more then 30 years later, that a delivery note in 1970 contained a wrong number, despite of Ferrari's poor record-keeping and interest in history?
     
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  7. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
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    Of course you are right! But may I suggest to check first's the metamorphosis, certification and identity of Mr Lampe's car. It probably makes more sense to discuss just after Mr Giordano's car.
     
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  8. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    #533 Marcel Massini, Feb 16, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2020
    Lampe did NOT have "unlimited access to all unmolested Ferrari documents" (in 1979/80). That is simply NOT true. Back in 1979 when Lampe did the 512 double issue of "Prancing Horse" magazine he just wrote letters to Dr. Franco Gozzi. Gozzi did answer to some individual questions and tried to fill in some blanks. Not more than that. And Gozzi did not check any invoices, delivery notes or other GES documents. I have all that correspondence.
    Forty (40!) years later and now with Classiche (introduced fourteen years ago in 2006, not in 2020!) the situation is very much cleared and NOT stirred at all. Perhaps some amateur historians without proper access to ALL documents might still be confused. And some not so well documented fchatters continue to try stirring a pot. Endless repeating hearsay and b.s. doesn't make things better or true. Sometimes owners are having a hard time to learn that their car is not what they think it is and unfortunately are unwilling to listen and learn. Despite tons of evidence.
    As said before, there is a proper two page letter from Ferrari's SAT (Servizio Assistenza Tecnica), dated 15 November 2002 (I have a perfect clear good quality color copy of that) in which SAT admits the error on the delivery note (stating 1024 was in fact 1004), plus there is a one page English translation of the same letter as well (all 3 pages on original factory letter head). Then there is another letter from Classiche to Giordano dated 21 June 2012. And another, very long and extremely detailed letter from the head of Classiche to Giordano, dated 29 August 2012.
    On top of all that there are plenty of original factory invoices and delivery notes, packing lists, customs documents, shipping & transportation documents, receipts, bank wire documents, etc. for various frames and many bits and pieces, spare parts, etc. from the factory to Herbert Müller that Lampe did NOT have back in 1979/1980 (when he produced the FCA "Prancing Horse" magazine special 512 issue). The Herbert Müller documents were acquired only in about 2000 from Müller's son Daniel Müller in Switzerland. I have copies of all that.

    And it is not "a Bob Houghton creation" as "lgs" states. I have four color and 1 black-white photo showing the frame as purchased in June 1979. It was not bits and pieces, it was a complete frame.
    There are no secrets. Even if other people continue to say so. The certified 1004 has a new body, and engine and gearbox are out of another 512 S. All that is clearly written in the red certification book.

    Unfortunately the owner of 1046 will not accept the fact that his car was never numbered 1004 and has no racing history. The factory has asked him to remove the self-made tag and has repeatedly offered to have the car properly authenticated and certified as 1046. That was refused.

    The Giordano car must be the most genuine and original 512 S in existence today.

    There is no poor record keeping by Ferrari. There is a lot of very detailed paperwork, if you know where to look and find, especially for the race cars and the GES (Gestione Sportiva) racing department. However, different departments exist and existed and not all the paperwork was together at one place at the same time, especially not forty or more years ago.

    Marcel Massini
     
  9. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

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    In the interest of clarity, Marcel, the frame although complete was not marked with a serial number, correct? What makes it likely that the frame is of #1004 is the paper trail, correct? Just to be clear about the story of the Lampe car.

    Just for the record, I believe Giordano's car is more likely to be #1046 too - I'm just trying to get to the logic behind the definition of Lampe's car as #1004.
     
  10. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Please see post #437 again.
    Thank you.

    Marcel Massini
     
  11. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    in case of the 512S I´m a newbie, but I wonder a little. was reading now long time the first 10 pages of this thread and made a list of the numbers what are written by several different posters.
    so I found these numbers: 1002, 1004, 1006, 1008, 1010, 1012, 1016, 1020, 1024, 1026, 1028, 1030, 1032,1034, 1040, 1042, 1044, 1046, 1048 and 1050. so all are 20 cars. what are with the missing numbers? I think those are 1014, 1018, 1022, 1036 and 1038, then it would be all together those 25.

    also 5 cars with the written numbers 1012, 1026, 1032,1034 and 1038 have been destroyed but some then also rebuilt.

    so back to the thread titel: what happened to the supposed 25 cars. but I think those 25 are not only S type, also M types? all a little confusing for me. may be getting older? ;)
     
  12. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO F1 Rookie
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    The best way to see clearly would be to open a thread for each frame.
     
  13. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    All original 25 units were born as "512 S". A majority was converted to "512 M" configuration.
    Chassis number range 1002 to 1050. Even numbers only.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  14. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    1018 and 1040 on 1st May 1992 at Mugello. Back then both were owned by Swiss collectors.
    (1018 is the red one, 1040 is the blue one).

    Marcel Massini

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  15. GIOTTO

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  16. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

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    Romano,
    'S' as you may know was Spyder in the case of the 512's.
    'M' indicated Modificata, so, modified from the original spyder configuration.
    Hope this helps,
    Dave
     
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  17. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO F1 Rookie
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    S = Sport.
     
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  18. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    thank you for the S=Sport, wondered already what should be Spider with a roof?
     
  19. GIOTTO

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  20. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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  21. JLarge

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    Coming off of those racing years in the late 60s and early 70s, I picture those 512s still caked in grease and grime wearing the dents they endured during the days when auto racing was truly a passion. I give credit to Lampe and Gozzi for making sure their whereabouts were soundly chronicled in the 70s when these cars were still easily accounted for. These two Ferrari titans:
    1). Famed Ferrari historian and collector Manfred Lampe who has not only viewed these cars from a watchful eye but has had the sheer pleasure of being an owner and 2). The one and only Franco Gozzi...right hand man and lieutenant to Enzo Ferrari.

    Franco did more than just add a few comments. He helped Lampe create a log of these cars so that conversations like these would not cloud history. It is not plausible to think or argue that these two famed Ferrari names who truly lived those racing days would confuse the identity of these serial numbers while the engines were still cooling down. The argument that SAT realized the mistake decades later is quite frankly not plausible.
     
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  22. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    A LOLA with 512 S bodywork.
    No worries.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  23. p gio

    p gio Karting

    Jan 30, 2020
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    One is a legitimate and 100% authentic Ferrari 512S and the other is not.
     
  24. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    You must be on a real mission............

    Marcel Massini
     
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  25. p gio

    p gio Karting

    Jan 30, 2020
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    So you have the right to continually post, comment, and insert your opinion, but I cannot?

    Still waiting to hear if you believe Manfred Lampe's Ferrari is 100% authentic and a 100% genuine Ferrari 512. (4th time)

    And you never answered my question regarding if Manfred was directly involved in the certification of #1004- you deflected that one.
     
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