What happened to the suppposed 25 versions of the 512S produced ? | Page 3 | FerrariChat

What happened to the suppposed 25 versions of the 512S produced ?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Kds, Jan 16, 2007.

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  1. furmano

    furmano Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #51 furmano, Jan 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
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  2. GTE

    GTE F1 World Champ

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    "S"
     
  3. henk4

    henk4 Formula Junior

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    #53 henk4, Jan 21, 2007
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    Bill, I am sure you must remember that in 2006 the only 512 in LeMans was a 1971 512 M, that did some demo laps only....

    and in 2005 RM sold #2006 at the Monterey auction for about 2 mln US$..
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  4. henk4

    henk4 Formula Junior

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    #54 henk4, Jan 21, 2007
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    another chassis ended up in the most unlikely shape of the Modulo...shown here at the Villa Erbe Pinin Farina presentation in 2005. Later that yrear the car also showed up at Pebble Beach.
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  5. Smiles

    Smiles F1 World Champ
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    Wasn't the original Modulo destroyed (or has gone missing) and the car above is a recreation?
     
  6. billnoon

    billnoon Formula 3
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    Hi Henk4,

    It was not 2006 but 1006 at RM. I consigned the car for that sale and had sold it to its previous two owners before that.

    The current owner is loosing his sight and sadly has decided to allow someone more fortunate to have the car.

    It will be sold at the RM / Ferrari auction this year.

    At Le Mans in 04 there were several 512s in attendance none of which I believe finished. There were two entered for 06 but only one made the first session and also did not finish.

    Regards,

    Bill Noon
     
  7. henk4

    henk4 Formula Junior

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    Hi Bill, sorry for the typo on #1006, is the current owner literally loosing sight and forced to sell it? I'll try to be in Maranello, will that be part of your European tour as well?
    Anyway, while I was not there in 2004 (but a very reliable source just told me that there were 3 in 2004), I spent 3 days on and off in the paddock for plateau 5 and 6 last year at Le Mans, but there was no 512s/m. (just two BBLMs, Guikas and Hales, and the "Belgian" 512BB) So maybe they were on the entry list, but not on track (except for the demo M, or was that a withdrawn original entry?)

    But I can imagine that for somebody who did the track on a bicycle every other car must have been passing pretty fast.......
     
  8. GTE

    GTE F1 World Champ

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    perhaps this deserves a independend thread. Would be interesting.
     
  9. henk4

    henk4 Formula Junior

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    well, the original question was what happened to the 25 chassis. This happened to one of them, and we could even discuss whether that is an improvement over its original shape...or not. (at least this is less off topic than the CD-Peugeot...)
     
  10. GTE

    GTE F1 World Champ

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    Oh no, i didn´t mean this as a statement that your comment was off topic in any way, but perhaps it would be interesting to talk a little bit further on the Modulo in a separate thread.

    It is not an improvement in my opinion, but perhaps I am a little bit conservative that way.
     
  11. henk4

    henk4 Formula Junior

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    sure, we can also make a separate one about chassis #1010 which became this

    http://www.***************.com/frame.php?file=car.php&carnum=625

    where you can also find #1048, the Modulo
    http://www.***************.com/frame.php?file=car.php&carnum=153

    and the most competitve of them all #1040

    http://www.***************.com/frame.php?file=car.php&carnum=152
     
  12. panza

    panza Rookie

    Mar 31, 2007
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    Hi all,

    Just here to takle a look about the CD.
    So, take a look on nice shoots of CD Le Mans 67 with Denis DAYAN

    www.wmiexplorer.com/DenisDayan

    His son is still looking for pictures.
     
  13. Bill P

    Bill P Karting

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    The Penske/Sunoco blue 512M S/N 1040 was born as a 512S Spyder and modified by Penske and Donohue to a 512M. The factory did not do its "M" body. That was built in the U. S. It ran Daytona, Sebring, Le Mans and Watkins Glen in 1971.

    The Chinetti/NART 512M S/N 1020 also competed at Daytona, Sebring and Le Mans, and Watkins Glen in 1971. It had a factory "M" conversion. Greg Young had a new 512M S/N 1014 for the Sebring race and NART also had a 512S S/N 1006 there.

    S/N 1040 got third at Daytona and sixth at Sebring in 1971.

    S/N 1020 got third at Le Mans and sixth at Watkins Glen that year.

    Pretty much even up, but nothing like what was anticipated!

    Bill Preston
     
  14. Poolshark

    Poolshark Rookie

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    @billnoon

    Hey Bill,

    I happen to know where car #1016 is and its probable asking price (which is no where near the $5m you mentioned)
    Good to read that story about you and your son. Maybe I can top it with my 2month old daughter :)
    Speaking of which. where was the battery in that car? was it already fitted behind the second seat? As the car is now the secondary wont fit because of the battery and the master switch...

    Do you know what happend to its original engine (it probably stuck a rod through. as they do. what I mean is; which eng# was in en where is it now)
     
  15. Stephan2738

    Stephan2738 Rookie

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    The engine of s/n 1042 was installed in s/n 1016 in 1979, don't know why though. The original engine of s/n 1016 went to Walter Medlin (USA), also in 1979.

    Kind regards,

    Stephan
     
  16. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Nope. The original still exists and is in the PF museum.
     
  17. Far Out

    Far Out F1 Veteran

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    Fantastic pictures and information! Thanks

    Two questions, though:

    1) How can you determine if it's S or M?
    2) Why aren't there so few images and other stuff about the Coda Lungas? Less built? Less successful?
     
  18. 8valve

    8valve Formula 3

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  19. 8valve

    8valve Formula 3

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    Last paragraph from the site I listed above, words by van Rossem, the Belgian stockmarket guru (Moneytron and the owner of the Onyx F1 team)


    "Note on Christie's swindling with the 512S chassis 1022/1032
    On May 5 1989, just before the start of the Monaco GP, where my both Onyx cars (for Stefan Johansson and Bertrand Gachot) had to prequalify, I bought at a public auction by Christie's the ex-Filipinetti Ferrari 512M for the sum of $ 1,301,358 US. The car came from Fritz Kroymans, the Dutch Ferrari importer. He gave Christie's all official paperwork proving that it was the original car witch chassis 1032. Altough the car was painted in the Filipinetti colours Filipinetti NEVER owned such car. The auction master, however, confirmed the potential buyers that the car was fully original.
    In fact Kroymans bought the car from his country mate Ed Swart, well knowing that it was just a replica using some original parts. The truth was that in 1978 England's Michael Cane built the replica and that up from mid-1970 there was no longer a 512S with chassis 1022 or 1032. Kroymans could hide that information for Christie's. Although Christie's is responsible for the autenticity of the sold goods, it took until 1999 before they agreed that it was a false car - long enough to make that no more trial was possible - the case being barred by statues of limitation. How clever the swindlers! "
     
  20. Stephan2738

    Stephan2738 Rookie

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    #70 Stephan2738, Sep 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    And the story continues...

    Jean Pierre van Rossum (Belgium) states: "The car came from Fritz Kroymans, the Dutch Ferrari importer."

    http://www.kidston.com/WORLD-CLASSIC...143&Itemid=180 (profided by tomgt in the excellent More Old Photos thread) from the article: "...before traveling to the USA, Holland, Belgium and finally entering the present European ownership in 1999."

    So the fact that it travels from Holland to Belgium strongly suggests that both articles are about the same car.

    So Jean Pierre van Rossum bought s/n 1032 in 1989, being presented by Christie's as a genuine 512, and paid 1,3 million dollar. He than somehow found out that it was not a genuine 512. He sold it in 1999 on the Appelboom auction for 400.000 dollar. Marc Caveng, the new owner restores it (according to the above mentioned kidston article) and in 2006 the factory certifies the 512 with certificato di autenticita no. 249. The car is restamped to 1022. So now it is considered to be a genuine 512.

    By the way: Marc Caveng bought Ferrari 512M s/n 1050 for 900.000 dollar in 1995, also an ex Filipinetti car...

    I attached a photo of 1032, than in the ownership of Jean Pierre van Rossum (don't know who holds the copyright, sorry)

    Kind regards,

    Stephan
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  21. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Let me set the record straight here:
    1050 is not an ex-Filipinetti car. This car was born as a 512 S Berlinetta. It was NOT used in 1970 and stored at the factory. It originally had engine type 261/C internal #16 (but the factory sold that engine to Chinetti during 1970). Originally #1050 was promised by Chinetti to Greg Young, USA; who never took delivery and instead Young decided to have his own chassis #1014 converted into M configuration by François Sicard in USA. In March 1971 chassis 1050 was converted by the factory into 512 M configuration. On 13 April 1971 the factory sold 1050 (with engine #40) to Corrado Manfredini, co-owner of Scuderia Picchio Rosso in Milan. Manfredini's partner was Count Roberto Angelini. The factory invoice #1057/71 was issued on 15 April 1971. The factory delivery note #25207 was issued 22 April 1971. On 25 April 1971 chassis 1050 was raced at Monza by Manfredini and Gagliardi. Manfredini also raced it at Imola (2 May 71), then on the 9th May 1971 at Spa-Francorchamps. For paperwork reasons Manfredini used the number 1032 (for 1050) in Spa. After Spa the factory revised the 512 engine type 261 C internal #40 and returned it on 27 May 1971 to Manfredini. On June 12, 1971, Manfredini and Gagliardi raced 1050 at Le Mans on race #6. Again for paperwork reasons only the number 1032 was used and the car was entered in the name of Filipinetti. Filipinetti did NOT own 1050. The owners were Manfredini and Angelini. On the 12th September 1971 Manfredini raced 1050 at the Imola 500 kms on race #24 but DNF due to alternator/electrical failure. This was the last race for chassis 1050. On 20 January 1972 Manfredini and Angelini sold 1050 to Crepaldi. The price paid was Italian Lire 15’000’000, a first amount of Italian Lire 5’000’000 was paid immediately by a bank check and the balance was to be paid in ten monthly installments of 1 Million Italian Lire each starting 29 February 1972 until December 1972. Thereafter Crepaldi sold it to Gaetano Tortora of Aix-en-Provence in France. In 1974 Tortora sold 1050 through Daniel Marin, Charles Pozzi SA, to Prince Claude Sanguzko of Paris. It was stored at Pozzi's premises in Levallois-Perret. On 7 September 1984 chassis 1050 was damaged during a Club Ferrari France meeting at Mas du Clos (Bardinon's circuit). Damage was mainly to the left rear. It was now fully restored. In the early 1990s Prince Sanguzko died. His estate sold 1050 on 15 September 1995 to Jean Guikas GTC Sarl in Marseille. On 29 September 1995 Guikas/GTC sold 1050 to Marc and Chris Caveng in Geneva, Switzerland. 1050 was factory certified on 28 June 2006 with Certificate #248 F. The car is fitted with engine type 261 C, internal #N. 40 and gearbox internal N. 24.
    Marcel Massini
     
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  22. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    Maybe other experts now, I do not think fake or partially fake cars becomes Ferrari Certified as original. But who knows.....
     
  23. Stephan2738

    Stephan2738 Rookie

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    Marcel Massini,

    Thanks for setting the record straight on Ferrari 512 s/n 1050. That's one more serial number that i can wrap up now, many thanks!


    Tom,

    I think you're absolutely right, the factory would not certify a car if it wasn't genuine. But that implicates that the car was also genuine when Jean Pierre van Rossum bought it (if it is indeed the same car). But something or someone made him believe that he bought a replica. He attended the Ferrari Benelux Meeting on 27 may 1989. Maybe it was there and than that something happened what made him think that he bought a replica. I don't know, it is only my hobby to collect Ferrari 512S and 512M pictures of the internet and try to allocate them to the right serial number. But as you said: Maybe other experts know.


    Kind regards,

    Stephan
     
  24. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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  25. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    hehehehehe :)
     

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