What Happened with Dino Values!!! | Page 25 | FerrariChat

What Happened with Dino Values!!!

Discussion in '206/246' started by 4CamGT, Mar 23, 2022.

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  1. tx246

    tx246 F1 Veteran
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    The cost of every aspect is more expensive, call it inflation/fuel surcharges on just about every aspect and the cost to produce the products needed AND labor.
     
  2. TTR

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    :confused: ???

    That's what I just said in my post (#600).
     
  3. swift53

    swift53 F1 Veteran
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    Since people were paid $4 x hour, it was deemed expensive. It has always
    been connected to the economic realities that surround us. Fuel at 15 cents.
    A Daytona could buy you a fairly run down home, but you could buy it.

    in 1970, a BMW 2002 cost $3500. Same car, now, is selling (fine examples) for 50K.
    Not the same as a Dino, but in the ratio of units produced, no comparison.

    Dino is preciously unavailable, because of a vogue for them.
    A Dino I have, was 5% of the one that Jon sold. Granted it required full reconditioning,
    but unfairly, I did it for a small amount in $, but a huge amount of my time, which is worth a lot.

    To have a car painted ( a BMW) by the top paint shop in the SFO East Bay,
    a Cool $15,000 for paint, and $70,000 in labour. Documented.
     
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  4. swift53

    swift53 F1 Veteran
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    More expensive? In relation to what...
    You buy a VW Tiguan and labour at the dealer is $200 x hour, BMW $325...
    How much was it the 70's? $7 x hour. Do the math...

    https://libraryguides.missouri.edu/pricesandwages/1970-1979
     
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  5. LUPO71

    LUPO71 Rookie

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    The restoration level on the Blu Scuro was amazing. I think the $650k was due to the flat economy and collectibles have leveled off for now. in 3-5 years that car is 20% higher. The Blu Scuro with Daytona interior is sublime. The only thing that car had that 'most' in Italy wouldn't have ordered was the power windows.
     
  6. TTR

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    The problem I see with all these "more (or crazy) expensive" comments or thinking, many don't seem to understand that looking at just (inflation adjusted) Dollar/Euro/Pound figures and comparing them to figures from 5, 10, 20, 50 years ago is just sort of hyperbole.
    The hour amount of labor is where it's at.
    It takes, and has always taken, SAME amount of labor hours to do SAME level/quality work, whether done today or 5, 10, 20 or 50 years ago.
    All this ^^ is admittedly just based on my 4+ decades of hands-on experience restoring vintage cars & middle school drop-out level understanding of economics ...
     
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  7. swift53

    swift53 F1 Veteran
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    Spot on...Timo.
     
  8. npwmd2

    npwmd2 Karting

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    Future value:
    Millennials, Gen X,Y,Z ers seem to be into the experiences of life! With fewer or no more manual shift sports cars being produced, the Dino with its great styling, performance for the age, and driveability, will be positioned for the generations to experience. If one makes a list of all the sports cars from the '60s-70s, Dino has to be at the top of the list along with the 911 for experience-minded drivers.
     
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  9. TonyL

    TonyL F1 Rookie

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    Not one to disagree with your experience but respectfully disagree on a few points, you need to factor in modern hi tech equipment that was around 10-15+ years ago. The other day I watched a £1m machine make piece of equipment out of a solid billet of ally that would have taken a craftsman months to make. 3d printing is another example etc etc

    Even your basic MIG/TIG welder is vastly superior to the old oil filled stick welders.

    With that prices should be and are cheaper today as a cost/unit.

    Best
    tony
     
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  10. TTR

    TTR F1 Veteran
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    ??? :confused:

    I was referring to "RESTORATION" of vintage cars, not remanufacturing or replicating components for them using DIFFERENT METHODS or QUALITY standards.
    I'm fairly sure no DINO or any other 50+ year old Ferrari originally had TIG* welding or 3D printed components used in their manufacturing.
    As far as I know, most of their assembly construction was "hand-built", using technology available at the time and if authentically/correctly restored, most (but not all**) of the same methods/technology is still available today.

    *Also, AFAIK, Vaccari built chassis and Scaglietti sheetmetal construction (at least on Daytonas and presumably on Dinos) were assembled with oxygen-acetylene welding, while much, but not all, of the sheetmetal support structure (what I call a "space-frame") was assembled using MIG welding (mostly to somewhat questionable level of "quality", even if compared to let's say mine or any other somewhat experienced basic fabricator using MIG).

    With all that in mind, it will take, if not exactly SAME amount of labor/time, very close, but lets not forget the fact that "restoration" difficulties can surpass those of the (original) manufacturing, especially when considering any and all damages the subject has suffered in its past and those can include everything from exposure to element (i.e. corrosion, etc) to ill- or poorly performed previous collision repairs or restoration attempts, etc, etc, etc, all of which can not be resolved by just hitting a "print" button or simply ignoring (you know "nobody will ever see that, so let's not fix/restore that area or item").

    ** In my nearly 30 years of reproducing obsolete compound curved glass/windows for 50+ year old vintage cars and having even gained access to $20+M computer/3D-scan/etc "hi tech"(?) modern manufacturing equipment, it was quite disappointing to learn their (surprisingly severe) capability limitations compared to what was not a problem 50+ years ago.

    OTOH, I'm sure many here will be thrilled, when you start offering high quality, complete restorations "cheaper".
     
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  11. swift53

    swift53 F1 Veteran
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    Hello Tony!
    Hope you are well!

    When we restored Dino, It was all 50 year old techniques, nothing you could 3D
    or remake, unless the 'old fashioned way'.
    You could never replicate a 1/4 Dino fender, with opening for turn signal (14 pieces of metal) all patch-worked together.

    So on Dino, I am at a loss where you can save $ upon its restoration.
    Remember the engine bay light the Carbonio Bros. replicated? Even with all the incredible "Today Techiques" it was hell on wheels.
    Ask them if the will ever do it again?

    Even your works of art...:)

    I really do not see a lessening of restoration costs, unless you have an automaton serve you coffee and restore Dino.

    Kind regards,
    Alberto
     
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  12. TTR

    TTR F1 Veteran
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    I was recently offered (for free) "old school" equipment/machinery for making compound curved, tempered side glass these aforementioned computerized, modern, eight figure manufacturing equipment can't do and while all this machinery appears to be in relatively nice condition, it has been disassembled for 30+ years and there just isn't any feasible financial incentive to even consider relocating, reconditioning/restoring & learning to use it all.
    Had this "opportunity" been made available 30 years ago, I was probably still stupid enough to have tried.
    Unfortunately, but more than likely it will all end up as scrap metal. :(
     
  13. swift53

    swift53 F1 Veteran
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    Let's take it to the 3rd world :) Nobody makes curved glass in El Salvador.
    There we can make it work, why not, unless too complicated...

    Regards, Alberto
     
  14. TonyL

    TonyL F1 Rookie

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    Timo, you said

    "It takes, and has always taken, SAME amount of labor hours to do SAME level/quality work, whether done today or 5, 10, 20 or 50 years ago."

    You should have been more accurate in your description so fixed it for you

    " It takes, and has always taken, SAME amount of labor hours to do SAME level/quality restoration work, whether done today or 5, 10, 20 or 50 years ago."

    I am acutely aware of what it takes to restore cars, not at your level but helping create this from sheets of fibreglass, buckets of resin and lumps of metal I know only to well what hours are spent.

    Next on the list is a 500TR and DBR1,

    Best
    Tony
    PS - Oxy DA welding was never done on dino chassis
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  15. TonyL

    TonyL F1 Rookie

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    thanks Alberto, youre too kind...

    Hey dont knock my auto coffee machine, its works overtime everyday, much quicker than me and gets paid a pittance :D

    You cannot save $$££ on restoration costs but you can on classic car parts, as you know parts are relatively cheap compared to modern equivalents and this is down to modern techniques that can make small low volume parts. Some of the items I made 3D scanning played an important role in keeping the labour / mat. cost ratio to a absolute minimum, without it those parts would be extortionate.

    Kind Regards
    Tony
     
  16. TTR

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    #616 TTR, Jul 10, 2024
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2024
    Thanks for the fix Tony, but with all due respect, I was under the impression the discussion was about (cost of) “restoration” so I didn’t bother to specify.
    Besides, again with all due respect, creating a fiberglass replica, while likely quite time consuming, is like comparing “apples & oranges” to “restoration”.

    Anyway, here’s a few elementary level examples that I hope may help those with no firsthand/in-person experiences with (entire) “restoration” process to understand how/why it takes same amount of labor to do it today than it did decades ago and to keep it simple, let’s use a Dino GT as our example (although any similar size/type car would offer same statistics).
    Following also assumes that if the SAME LEVEL/QUALITY restoration is to be performed to two identical cars initially in nearly identical condition at the start, the required amount of labor and materials will be same, regardless when it is/was done.

    - Disassembly, documentation/inspection/inventory of everything will take XXX hours (+/- 10% depending on aforementioned previous damage or other unexpected complications) and took same decades ago.

    - Body & paint work (from start to finish, assuming all the metal, etc repairs have already been finished) will take XXX hours + same quantities of material (not only paint, but body fillers, masking paper/- tape, primers/sealers, etc), whether today or decades ago.

    - Engine rebuilding/restoration will take XXX hours + same quantities of parts today as it did decades ago (& again, assuming everything done to same extent & level of quality).

    - Same with interior (XXX hours + material) or all electrical/mechanical aspects/components/systems (XX/XXX hours per each + materials) of the car and final assembly/installation of everything (XXX or more hours).


    All this ^^ is applicable to restoration of any vintage car, regardless of make or model.
    Only variables are the technical complexity and/or size of the subject, i.e. let’s say (1 of 7 made) 1960 Crown Imperial Ghia limousine is much bigger (at least twice the size) & complex car to paint than a Dino, so it’s “paint job” should be expected to take more (twice ?) time and materials.
    It also has a lot more electrical & mechanical components & systems, along with their complexity, than Dino.
    Same with complexity of its interior/upholstery, not to mention all the bright works, i.e. all the exterior/interior trim to be anodized, chromed, polished, etc.

    So in summary, the SAME LEVEL/QUALITY restoration of the Imperial is much more time and material consuming and therefore should cost more than Dino, but it will be difficult, if not impossible to find an owner who is willing to pay for it.
    Just like it was nearly impossible to find a Dino owner 20 or 30 years ago to commission & pay for a SAME LEVEL/QUALITY restoration that is becoming expected in today’s world.

    But those not really understanding “restoration” tend to focus mainly/only on $/£/€ figures rather than time & technicalities of the process.
     
  17. Michael Call

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    As someone who restores vintage Italian cars all-day-everyday, I can attest that the price of restoring a Dino is far more today than it was even a few years ago. Yes, there are new high tech methods for reproducing unobtanium bits in tiny volumes, but they are far from inexpensive. They simply make what was nearly impossible in the past possible now. Yes, the old techniques used in period can be reproduced, but the number of people who are masters of these crafts are retireing and many have sadly passed on. Few young people entering the workforce have any interest in maintining traditions that died long before they were born. The growing values of many of these cars is now justifying the restoration of cars that would have been considered too far gone just a few years ago; so the starting point of many restorations nowadays is often on the back foot. Due to increased real estate values, the cost of a workshop (buying or renting) is considerably higher than it was a few years ago. The increased number of cars now getting restored has caused some bits that used to be relatively easy to obtain to fall into the "when we get enough pent up demand, we will produce another run" category. When that happens, the bits that become available again invariably arrive with a higher price tag. I would say from experience that the cost of restoring one of these cars has more than doubled over the past decade.
     
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  18. TTR

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    Are you sure about that ?
    While it has been a quite a while since I saw a bare naked, stripped Dino chassis up close, I do recall seeing, like on Daytonas I’ve restored or worked on, oxy-acetylene welding on their chassis (not the coach work supporting “space frame” or the outriggers for it) and assumed (I know, I know) since both were made during same timeframe, that both were constructed in same fashion.
    I’m now curious enough to take a closer look at the C/4 after lunch to see how its chassis/main frame is welded.

    I see a lot restorations utilizing TIG welding, but we all know that is incorrect way to do it as far as authenticity/originality is concerned, right ? Kind of like using English Wheel for sheet metal shaping on vintage Ferraris.
     
  19. Michael Call

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  20. swift53

    swift53 F1 Veteran
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    Michael,

    You are spot on on 99% of the issues, yet, some parts are impossible.
    I will bet you anything that you cannot reproduce the engine compartment light for Dino 206 an L.
    Of course as you say, 1000's, but these , there is a market for maybe 50 if that many?

    Kind regards,
    Alberto
     
  21. swift53

    swift53 F1 Veteran
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    Once, at a top notch restorer in Berkeley, the owner asked me if I could weld, and I said barely with Oxy.
    Great! He said, please make some welds for me on this Ferrari chassis. Perfection...
    None of his guys could do a crappy job.:rolleyes:

    Regards, Alberto
     
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  22. TTR

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    WOW ! Those ^ (late model Ferrari ?) welds seem much worse than anything I've seen in Daytonas, but given the latter was assembled (and welded) mostly at Scagliettis (& at Vaccaris) perhaps one can't directly "blame" Ferrari. :rolleyes:;):D

    BTW, I just looked at the C/4 chassis/frame welds and while some of its Vaccari assembly appears to have been done with Oxy-Acetylene, most seem to be done with wire feed, a.k.a. MIG, but both are much nicer & have a good, uniform penetration compared to MIG welds for the "space frame" structure done at Scagliettis for Daytonas.

    I sympathize. It 's hard to get them "just right" (but one can succeed by closing both eyes & using non-primary hand). :D
     
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  23. TTR

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    Based on my experience/understanding, the learning curve (pun intended) will likely be steep and the (disassembled and hopefully all there ?) equipment will probably require at least one 40' container to move.
    Besides, it's in the hands of a (small) glass manufacturer who got it used (for free) and had to disassemble for transportation few decades ago, but never saw enough demand to re-assemble and start practicing.
     
  24. swift53

    swift53 F1 Veteran
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    As always Timo, it is complicated. If wish to talk, you have my number.

    Regards, Alberto
     
  25. TonyL

    TonyL F1 Rookie

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    I thought the thread was about Dino values.........not to undermine the restoration business one iota but at least you have a car in the workshop to start with (except for Alberto) That replica took years to create from drawing board to putting in a tank full of petrol, for me and I have done both, the engineering expertise & knowledge to create that "fibreglass replica" is far more challenging and hats off to the guy who did it.

    So in summary restoration is the easy bit, developing a brand new vehicle from the ground up is the hard part.

    Best

    Tony
     
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