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WHAT IS IT WORTH ?

Discussion in 'United Kingdom' started by 400SPYDER, Jul 21, 2004.

  1. 400SPYDER

    400SPYDER F1 Rookie

    Jul 7, 2004
    3,451
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    kevan
    UPDATE - Ferrari F400i telaio 47589

    Further to my first post on FChat

    http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23573

    I have now estabished that this 1983 conversion was not done by
    Pininfarina :mad: .

    However Pininfarina have confirmed that the completely restored this car(presumably for the Sultan of Brunei's brother Prince Jefri - who else could afford or commission such a restoration?).

    Work done in late 90's, car shipped back to UK in 1999 with only 5K miles - not reg. until 02/2002 - has now done 5786 miles.

    Due to questionable provenance I still have not taken delivery of car, it still has my original few hundred cash deposit on it from the beginning of the month.

    Obviously as car is not as advertised I want to renogiate the price originally agreed. I know some of you will say walk away(hopefully with a returned deposit), but this car is exactly what I want - a true 4 seater Ferrari convertible(not cabriolet) and where else can you find one of those?

    So guys how much do you think it is worth?
     
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  3. andrewg

    andrewg F1 Rookie
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    Sep 10, 2002
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    The ex Who car raised £6.5k at H&H a couple of months ago, but that was a bit tatty but could have been brought up to a decent standard for a couple of thousand, a very very good 400 is around £15k so that would be the maximum price I'd pay if I wanted one, not a penny more as they just arent that desirable at the moment
    have you had it inspected if so what things (if any) need doing to it?
     
  4. 400SPYDER

    400SPYDER F1 Rookie

    Jul 7, 2004
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    kevan
    John Pogson Italia Autosport was lined up to do it this week, before the **** hit the fan!

    Was still going to have the inspection done - although if I can't agree new price with dealer, is there any point in throwing good money after bad?
     
  5. 400SPYDER

    400SPYDER F1 Rookie

    Jul 7, 2004
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    kevan
    Forgot to ask was Townsend's 400 a convertible/spyder?
     
  6. andrewg

    andrewg F1 Rookie
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    Yep,
    It was converted by Autocraft in the early 80's (series 2 400i like the one your looking at) the similarities between the car you looking at and the one at h&h is what makes me think yours could be an Autocraft car.Perhaps a good starting point for renegotiation

    400i's IMHO are the most underated Ferrari at the present time, in the same way GTE's are of the 250 series, a Bomb proof cruiser the only problem seems to be they dissolve on contact with water (see my avitar for an example!) and parts arent exactly cheap!
     
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  8. andrewg

    andrewg F1 Rookie
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    Kevan

    below is the auction report for the Pete Townshend car I made a mistake it went for £4200 (you could scrap one and make more on the parts!)

    Lot 4 Photograph unavailable at present
    Status SOLD
    Estimate £6500 - 7500
    Hammer Price £4200.00
    Mileage 100000
    Colour METALLIC BLUE
    Trim Colour MAGNOLIA
    Chassis No 30271
    Engine No 30271
    Registration DGL 49V


    The 400, really an updated 1972 365GT4, first appeared on the Ferrari stand at the 1976 Paris Salon, where the new 2+2 was offered with either 5-speed manual or, for the first time, with 3-speed automatic transmission. A total of 502 400s were built at Maranello before a more emissions friendly, fuel injected 400i was introduced in 1979.

    This 400i was made in Italy in 1981 and was one of 12 such fixed head coupes to have been converted to current open-top spyder configuration by Autokraft for officially appointed Ferrari dealers H R Owen. According to the vendor, the 2+2 convertible, which has fully documented history from new, was formally owned by pop musician Pete Townsend of the Who fame. Also included among the documentation are factory supplied handbook and service booklet.
    Although the current overall condition of both body and metallic blue paintwork is described by the entrant as being excellent, some relatively minor vandalism to front screen, hood fabric and magnolia hide has been declared - and rectification of these items is reflected in the guide price here today. As for the state of the engine, the 4.8-litre twelve is said to be serviceable and the auto-shift reportedly in good order.
     
  9. 400SPYDER

    400SPYDER F1 Rookie

    Jul 7, 2004
    3,451
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    kevan
    Any idea where I could find a photo of this car or any other Autocraft conversions?



    Andrew I think you stated in another thread of mine that Autocraft were bought out by AC who make Cobras - is that right?
     
  10. Dale

    Dale F1 Veteran

    Oct 7, 2003
    5,211
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    Dale Juan
    Kevan Andy's giving you good advice,find the history if you can then forget how good the bodywork look's and get it inspected by an independant and ferrari uk dealer which ever you chose, then tell us how different the outcome of the inspection's were,
    Kevan you must have a trust'y tech when you own or are in the market for a f-car and im not plying my trade-im not the man,
    Kevan hope all turn's out ok and stand for no crap be,there and look at what your buying,

    cheers
    Dale.
     
  11. 400SPYDER

    400SPYDER F1 Rookie

    Jul 7, 2004
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    kevan
    After most of evening doing internet research the name of the company is
    E G Autokraft and they took over AC, who now make the cobra.

    Also found this auction result for a 365 GTC/4 - which at todays ex.rate is approx. £35k

    Bonhams Ferrari Sale, Hotel Palace, Gstaad/Switzerland, 18 December 2001
    UNOFFICIAL RESULTS NOT CONFIRMED YET
    By Marcel Massini

    LOT YEAR TYPE COLOR CHASSIS# ESTIMATE SFR HAMMER PRICE SFR


    258A 1972 365 GTC/4 Spider Conversion by Autokraft Darkblue 14477 100'000-120'000 80'000

    AND PRESUMABLY THIS WAS ONE OF THEIR DAYTONA REPLICAS?

    Did not manage to find any photos though - so if anyone has any please let me know.

    Thanks Kevan
     
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  13. 400SPYDER

    400SPYDER F1 Rookie

    Jul 7, 2004
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    kevan
  14. steve f

    steve f F1 World Champ

    Mar 15, 2004
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    steve
    it dont matter what everybody else thinks its worth its what it is worth to you what you wanna pay for it you will get a wide varied of prices on here people who like old classics will think it is worth good money people who dont like old ferrari"s will say it aint worth a bean so there is only you who knows what you want to pay for it
     
  15. Boxer 512

    Boxer 512 Formula Junior
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    Seb King
    Kevan,

    The car you are looking at is 400i Auto 2+2 (RHD) - Correct ?

    On this basis it is one of 171 manufactured between 1979 & 1984, although rarer than most of the cars represented on this forum it is not generally considered as a desirable model, It's that desirability, (normal market forces & in some cases it's historical significance), that give's any vehicle it's value.

    According to the best source available the car has a Low value of £5,000 and a High value of £18,000 - However this does not take into account the conversion factor nor any of it's history ?

    Unfortunately there is no definative answer here, Other's are right by saying it's only worth what you're prepared to pay ?

    Good Luck,

    Seb

    PS - John Pogson is a great guy and will soon sort Wheat from chaff !

    SK
     
  16. 400SPYDER

    400SPYDER F1 Rookie

    Jul 7, 2004
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    kevan
    Thanks for all your constructive comments - I am waiting to 'talk turkey' with the dealer on price tomorrow.

    Thanks also to all the Kent Fchatters who reccomended Simon and Richard at KHPC(The Ferrari Centre). Spent a very enjoyable few hours today being shown round by Simon.

    He reccomends a Mondial Cab if the 400 Spyder doesn't work out - any thoughts - especially as he thinks the older 3.2 tranverse engine model is a better bet.
     
  17. tomkranz

    tomkranz Karting

    Dec 22, 2003
    152
    Berkshire
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    Tom
    The engine's in the right place, for a start :)

    That 400i looks very nice indeed. A late model Mondial 3.2 rag top is a very nice car, too. Tricky choice.

    I was torn between a 400i or a Mondial QV - the Mondial swung it for me because the handling was better, the 8s seem more 'revvy' and fun to drive, and because I don't have a private oil field to fund the fuel consumption of the big 12.

    Cheers,
    TOM
     
  18. ian_jory

    ian_jory Karting

    Apr 13, 2004
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    UK
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    Ian
    Okay - it's anorak time... I was at that auction in Gstaad and actually that 365 GTC/4 sold there is a different beast to the 365 GTB or 365 GTS (Daytona coupe and Daytona Spyder respectively). The 365 GTC is the sister car to the Daytona and is a four seater, quite fairly considered a 'softer' car but nonetheless still capable, with the same V12 motor albeit with different carbs and the gearbox mounted to the engine, rather than a transaxle in the Daytona. Anyway, if you're interested and haven't got bored and stopped reading by this point.., there is a picture at the following link.. http://www.barchetta.cc/All.Ferraris/gstaad-auction---story/ferrari-365.html

    Oh, sorry can't help with pricing the 400 convertible though.. but the advice given so far I'd agree with. You could try talking to some of the specialist dealers and get their opinions - try Mike Wheeler at Rardley Motors or Guy Tedder at Talacrest.

    Good luck!
     
  19. 400SPYDER

    400SPYDER F1 Rookie

    Jul 7, 2004
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    kevan
    Thanks Ian - no not bored at all.

    [/QUOTE]Oh, sorry can't help with pricing the 400 convertible though.. but the advice given so far I'd agree with. You could try talking to some of the specialist dealers and get their opinions - try Mike Wheeler at Rardley Motors or Guy Tedder at Talacrest.

    Good luck![/QUOTE]

    Thanks again - spoken with Guy already, seemed like a really nice Guy :D (Pun intended).

    Which is alot more than I can say about a certain individual who had the car for sale in the UK in 1999 and made some very bold statements about the car's provenance, which I have now proven to be untrue. At the risk of naming the guilty I can only suggest you follow my previous threads - or PM/Email for the gory details!
     
  20. 400SPYDER

    400SPYDER F1 Rookie

    Jul 7, 2004
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    kevan
    Just found this information, two different companies with similar names. AC Autokraft are the ones still in business making.......AC Cobras.

    So can't find out if EG Autokraft converted 'my' car.

    "The Daytona spyder is considered by many to be the most beautiful two-seater sports car in the world and this is reflected in the incredibly high prices the originals are enjoying. In the case of the EG Autokraft car, it is Jaguar based with a millimetre correct body in G.R.P, the mould of which was taken from an original.

    Emilio Garcia created the whole concept in the late eighties who had worked on the real things as well AC Cobra's and similar cars. He designed the chassis to be very strong and in hindsight is grossly over engineered but it never fails. He then co-opted Peter Jacobs, a well-known ace with G.R.P. who had manufactured many production car bodies, and together they made a correct body chassis unit to which could be added the Jaguar underpinnings.

    You could not really have a V12 replica that had anything other than a V12 engine so it was all designed around the Jaguar V12 XJ series. This produced a dazzling Ferrari without all the temperament but with a user friendly engine and a car with immediate spares availability at sensible costs.

    After the boom of the late eighties, hard times arrived and by the early nineties when the car was at it's peak of development, and it all met a sad end. People were not prepared to spend about £35,000 for a replica, in many cases badly put together, and suffer the resultant aggravation. When you spend that sort of money, you expect quality. This, together with quality control problems, missing parts, financial mismanagement and threatening legal cases, it was no surprise to hear that in about 1993 -4, the company had gone out of business owing a great deal of money and leaving many very annoyed people. A story repeated many times at this period by many other companies."

    Info. from http://www.daytonareplicaclub.co.uk/
     
  21. andrewg

    andrewg F1 Rookie
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    Kevan

    the car you weere looking at would have been converted by Brian Angliss's company (autocraft), this is the one that took over control of AC not the one who made replica's, so they may/should be able to tell you if they did the job,
    have you thought about asking HR Owen as they commissioned some of the cars
     
  22. 400SPYDER

    400SPYDER F1 Rookie

    Jul 7, 2004
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    kevan
    I have contacted AC Autokraft, who took over AC and they have no knowledge of this work. I therefore presumed it must be EG Autokraft who made the replicas - and that is who I thought had converted Townsends car which you highlighted. EG went bust some years ago as referred to on the Daytona Replica site.

    Do you have any contact information for Brian Angliss Autocraft - I am sure both company names are spelt with a (k)raft.

    Thank you for the HR Owen suggestion. Spoken to them twice on the phone and sent 3 emails, but no reply received.

    HR Owen contact actually obtained via Mike Sheehan the renowned Ferrari dealer in the States - what a realy nice guy he has been.
     

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