What track pads for CCM rotors

RacingBrake sintered brake pad dedicated for CCM rotors are presented to GT-R community.

Different compounds from various suppliers are tested and reviewed here:

http://www.gtrheritage.com/topic/446...th-ccm-rotors/

 

First post:
http://www.gtrheritage.com/topic/446...rs/#entry71992

Some of you might have learned that we were in the process of developing a brake pad specifically target to deal with CCM rotors.

We know GT-R track bunch have been trying various iron rotors and pads, seeking for the best combination. It seems the result is still mixed and falling short from being a truly reliable track set up that you can really pound on it w/o worrying something can go wrong.

It can be concluded that heat from GT-R brake could have run beyond what at a "Metallic" (Iron) rotor can handle w/o substantial expansion and contraction during heat cycles that can consequently affect the system performance.

To ease the massive heat issue we think we can do two things:

1. Use a non-metallic rotor material which we know CCM is available - This eliminates rotor's dimensional change under extreme heat.

2. Use a brake pad that can provide a consistent brake torque (coefficient of friction) at elevated temperature.

#2 leads us to the development of sintered brake pad.

Sintered pad is a full metallic pad and is made from a very different process than conventional lining (semi-metallic). It doesn't use resin like semi-metallic to hold the friction ingredients together which no matter what brand or compound, its performance/durability is subject to the "resin" temperature threshold which can turn a race pad to dust if the resin threshold temperature is reached.

Contrary to the conventional pad which contains resin, sintered pad is 100% metallic, basing of iron, copper plus some 16-18 different metallic powder, compressed under extreme pressure to form and baked in high temperature oven so both lining and backing plate* are "welded" together, therefore the performance consistency and durability (wear resistance) are highly predictable. (*high heat resistant)

As you can see here we are reversing the material on both rotor (from iron to CCM) and pad (from semi to full metallic)

I believe if we can come up a brake pad with a consistent COF and can deliver a consistent brake torque under elevated temperature, it shall make the overall braking more efficient and thereby reduce the overall braking temperature - this is what we are striving for and hope this will be a break-though brake set up.

Our sintered track proto-type pad was tested by "werks" on his ZR1 against other known brands for CCM rotors, while Shawn tested street compound on his CCM rotor kits and "accidentally" found it also highly trackable.

We expect to have the real sample available for track test again in about 4 weeks.

Thank you for reading.

 

Last post:
GT-R Heritage
These pads will also be sent to Surface Transform for them to test on their dyno so to compare with Pagid RS29 that they are familiar with, so they can endorse it for their CCM rotors.

I have been testing this track compound (earlier proto type) on CCM rotors for street driving, and found it's highly streetable except the groaning (like metal to metal grinding noise) before stops, and infrequent light squeaking, which seems to be quiet acceptable for a "spirited" minded driver. More longer term observation is required to justify the claim for street use.

During earlier prototyping, we had two compounds - track and street. The street compound (the one Shawn tested) was absolutely quiet and no squeaking, although it can also sustain at high track speed w/o fading but we don't like it's friction level and initial bite. In essence our existing XT910 (semi-metallic) can well fill that need (for spirited driving & light tracking.)

I will continue testing this track compound CR145 on street and closely monitoring for the rotor wear, but as of last measurement with micrometer it shows no wear at all, and the good part is the wheels stay clean all the time.

Up until now, our conventional wisdom tells us you either change the pad between street and track for the best result, or no pad change with trade off i.e. sacrifice the brake power and pad wear on track, or put up on squeak and dusting on street driving.

I am hoping this development will lead to a breakthrough on "one fits all" brake pad, that will also match up with the new CCM rotor technology.

Thank you for your reading and comments.

Warren - RB

 

Some pictures
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We are shaping up track gear with Carbon Ceramic Brakes for GT-R track community, where people are converting standard iron to CCM.

This sintered brake pad development is one of the components.

Our CCM rotors are built with carbon ceramic discs supplied by Surface Transforms in UK. We stock the discs for quick shipment and after service.
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The latest track review on RB sintered pads just came in:

GT-R Heritage

Hi guys, just wanted to hop on and give you guys some feedback on my testing of RB's new sintered track pad. I went out and tested them on Sunday at Thunderhill on the 3 mile track. I arrived at the track with OEM ZR1 pads installed and ran a session with them just to make sure that the feel and performance of those pads was fresh in my memmory. Then before the next session I switched over to the RB Sintered pads (front and rear) and went and did 5 or 6x 50mph to 5mph stops just to make sure that the pads were seated properly and to get a quick idea of what I could expect for performance. On the first stop applying normal brake pedal pressure ABS quickly kicked in. On subsequent stops I dailed back my pedal pressure and was able to stop agresively without activating ABS. So just from that quick test I was left with the initial impression that the pads felt like they have significantly more initial bite than OEM. Thos of you that have tested Endless W007's have also experienced this increase in initial bite when bedding the pads, so it was similar to that but honestly with even more initial bite than the W007's! I should add that when doing this testing I was on full slicks (315/650R18 front and 325/680R18 rear) so these are pretty big tire (comparable to Hoosier R7's in 315/30/18 front and 345/35/18 rear) with quite a bit of grip, not street tires or traditional R comps.

I then proceeded on track for my session and in my typical method of pad testing started off at a slow pace with my brake markers pulled back quite a bit from the corners and then each lap increasing my pace and moving my brake markers forward to slowly build up the load that I'm placing on the pad. What I was able to notice almost immediately that the increased initial bite that i had felt during the hot pit stops was still there and these pads bite! What I also noticed is that unlike with the W007's which I consider to be almost "digital" meaning that to me they are completely lacking any ability to modulate them so they feel like you are either off the brakes or 100% on the brakes. Once you apply initial pressure on the pedal and the car starts slowing, that's it! Press harder and you get no additional brake torque which is one of the things that hoestly I do not like about the W007 pad. On the otherhand with the RB pads I was able to easily modulate brake torque through pedal pressure. This allowed me to come into high speed corners hot, late brake and then as the car starts slowing and I start losing aero downforce (I run a 6" spliter with venturi's and 72" wing on my car) I can easily start decreasing pedal pressure and hence brake torque to prevent ABS kicking in. I found that I was also able to easily trail brake into corners with these pads to help the car rotate which again with the W007's I could not really do comfortably. As the session went on and I was pushing the car harder and harder I did not notice any change in pad performance so brake torque and initial bite stayed consistent from pad cold to pad hot, something that with for instance the OEM ZR1 pads I find changes. As those pads heat up they start to get a little "greasy" feeling and you notice a decrease in maximum brake torque.

So all in all I have to say that I ahve tested a lot of brake pads and to date these are by far the best ones that I have ran! They seem to have it all, great initial bit, high maximum brake torque, good modulation ability, consistent performance no matter what temperature etc. etc. So these are staying in my car lol! I'm heading to Thunderhil again on Friday and will be running the 5 mile track this time which is even harder on brakes, so more info later this week!

 

More follow up review on this past Sunday at Thunderhill 5 mile track:

http://www.gtrheritage.com/topic/362...-14#entry76542

Hi Guys, did some more pad testing last weekend at Thunderhill on the 5 mile track this time and again performance was simply awesome! Strong initial bite, great modulation and goor maximum brake torque. Pad wear also looks to be really good! I'm working on the car in the next few days and will pull the pads and inspect rotors but everything looks great so far with a good transfer layer on the rotor (which don't forget is important with CCM brakes as they work through adhesive friction (pad rubbing against the pad transfer layer applied to the rotor) instead of abrasive friction (pad rubbing and wearing into the rotor surface) like with iron rotors. My buddy Mike aka Mikymu who has done a lot of the iron rotor testing for Racing Brake was there that day testing a new radiator and shot some video where you can see me testing pads. I'm in the orange vette and 7racer you can see me doing some of the stuff that I was talking about when i was discussing safely testing brake pads like braking early, slowly building up speed, gradually moving my brake markers back etc.etc. In any case here is a link to the video, the lead follow stuff starts at about the 1 minute mark, enjoy!

https://www.youtube....XxO9aQJM#t=1102

 

An ultimate tracking brake gear is shaping up:

http://www.gtrheritage.com/topic/362...-14#entry76391

icarus, on 25 Jul 2015 - 8:40 PM, said:

Well 7, seems like you may have found the perfect brake setup for a tracked GT-R, correct me if I'm wrong:
- extremely long pad life
- extremely low rotor wear
- no fade within a 25 min track session even in Texas heat
- superb brake feel, excellent stopping power both hot and cold
- no noise
- same pad both street and track

The only con being $$$. Racing brake calipers/lines with ST CCM-X rotors, and these crazy expensive Endless W007 pads. But dammit man, it might just be worth it for these unbelievably great results you're getting!!!!
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Our comment:

Well expected and stated from a track enthusiast stand point, I think we are pretty close to that goal as 'werks' & Shawn both continue their track tests on pad longevity.

 

We are glad to report that an ultimate true competition brake package is shaping up in GT-R community.

RB/CCM-X Surface Transforms rotor
RB Sintered brake pad

We just shipped another complete RB/CCM-X brake kit to a Camaro ZL1 customer, and have him run on ZR1 OE pads first to establish a bench mark before adopting to RB sintered pads - Available in about 4 weeks.

CCM-X Rotor Kits for GT-R w/ST Discs - Page 16 - Handling and Suspension - Nissan GT-R Heritage

 

OE pad thickness for CCM rotors is 16mm (same for F430 Scud and F458), but we make our sintered pads thicker than OE to improve thermal capacity.

17mm (1mm thicker than OE) - Fit F430 Scud (red caliper)

19mm (3mm thicker than OE) - Can fit under F458 (yellow) and RB (Anodized) calipers for endurance racing.

Above fitment verification is based on a 36mm thickness of CCM front rotors.
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CCM-X Rotor Kits for GT-R w/ST Discs - Page 17 - Handling and Suspension - Nissan GT-R Heritage

Sintered pad is 100% metallic and formed under extreme pressure in an extreme high temperature oven, so it's solidified w/o requiring any bonding agent. Therefore the performance (COF) is highly stable, consistent and predictable at various temperature.

On the other hand the conventional pad compounds are bonded together by 'resin' which performance suffers (COF declines), as the temperature elevated, when the COF is diminished, the driver will naturally increase his pedal pressure to compensate for the brake torque loss, consequently it will only increase the braking temperature with little increase of brake torque, and the temp keeps go higher...resulting to ill effect and/or brake failure especially for CCM rotors.

So in essence the sintered pad can prevent (halt) the 'continuous' temperature rise once the brake torque is reached and satisfied (by driver) - Less pedal pressure=lower heat, whilst a conventional pad's COF will yield at a higher temperature, sacrificing the COF and overall brake torque output with higher braking temperature.

 

We first make only the track compound but it was also tested for street driving:
In Quest of Ultimate Brake Pad for GT-R..With CCM Rotors - Page 3 - Handling and Suspension - Nissan GT-R Heritage
These pads will also be sent to Surface Transform for them to test on their dyno so to compare with Pagid RS29 that they are familiar with, so they can endorse it for their CCM rotors.

I have been testing this track compound (earlier proto type) on CCM rotors for street driving, and found it's highly streetable except the groaning (like metal to metal grinding noise) before stops, and infrequent light squeaking, which seems to be quiet acceptable for a "spirited" minded driver. More longer term observation is required to justify the claim for street use.

During earlier prototyping, we had two compounds - track and street. The street compound (the one Shawn tested) was absolutely quiet and no squeaking, although it can also sustain at high track speed w/o fading but we don't like it's friction level and initial bite. In essence our existing XT910 (semi-metallic) can well fill that need (for spirited driving & light tracking.)

I will continue testing this track compound CR145 on street and closely monitoring for the rotor wear, but as of last measurement with micrometer it shows no wear at all, and the good part is the wheels stay clean all the time.

Up until now, our conventional wisdom tells us you either change the pad between street and track for the best result, or no pad change with trade off i.e. sacrifice the brake power and pad wear on track, or put up on squeak and dusting on street driving.

I am hoping this development will lead to a breakthrough on "one fits all" brake pad, that will also match up with the new CCM rotor technology.

Thank you for your reading and comments.
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Yes it's noisy (plus some occasional squeaking), but we found it's acceptable even for street driving to most "motorsports minded" drivers who don't want to switch the pad between track and street. And on tracks you should not be bothered with it I guess.

Street compound will be released later.

 

Latest review on RB sintered pad tracked with CCM rotors

In Quest of Ultimate Brake Pad for GT-R..With CCM Rotors - Page 5 - Handling and Suspension - Nissan GT-R Heritage

 

IF the brake caliper is the same as F458, then it should have the same pad (top one on picture), we will have it (bottom).

Our pad will fit better to CCM rotors than OE pad.
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Hi Guys, just another quick update on the new Racing Brake sintered pads after running the 5 mile a few weeks ago. I had the opportunity to pull the pads and rotors to inspect them and I was quite impressed with the results after hammering on them for a full day of 5x 30 minute sessions on the 5 mile and about a half day on the 3 mile. Upon pulling the pads and inspecting them wear was even and consistent across all of the pads and the pad surface did not display any cracking or fracturing of the pad material indicating that the material was well within it's operating temperature range.

And another view:

There is a little bit of pad material covering the molding gaps but that is nothing to be concerned about as it's simply a thin layer of the lower melting point metals in the pad.

Looking at the front rotors it was evident that the pads had laid down a good transfer layer on the rotor surface as can be seen here:

This is important again because with the CCM rotor surface being near diamond hard the pads have to work through adhesive friction meaning that the pad will generate friction by rubbing against a layer of identical pad material applied to the rotor surface.

The rear rotors also displayed a good pad transfer layer as can be seen here:

So in total I was extremely pleased with the transfer layer applied to the rotor surfaces! This also protects the rotor surface and indicates that the pads are going to be gentle on the rotors.

I measured pad wear after the events and I had 2mm of wear on the front pads. Considering that this includes a half day on the 3 mile and a full day running on the 5 mile track where you have something like 25 corners including 1 where I'm slowing from nearly 150mph and 3 where I'm slowing from roughly 130mph per lap, that indicates that pad life is going to be really good with these new pads from Racing Brake! As I mentioned in my previous review initial bite with these pads was the best that I have felt to date, modulation was awesome and maximum braking force was again the best that I have felt so all in all I think that we have a winner!
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OK I searched the web and identified the caliper and pads which are very similar to Porsche 991 GT3 that we are familiar with.

The pars are very expensive from Pagid ($1.3k front and 1.1k rear). Hard to imagine how much the dealer will charge?

The pad can be made available, although we prefer to offer the complete replacement kits.

Alternatively - Replace the complete brake system to RB caliper kits, our kits use the same pads as ZR1 (very comparable to Speciale size wise), but the pad availability is abundant at lower prices.

Our BBK for F458 (also fits Speciale) are designed and built to the same size as Porsche 991 GT3 pccb:

410x36 front
390x32 rear

Our rotors are supplied by Surface Transforms CCM-X discs and they are much stronger and durable than OE CCM rotors by Brembo.

RB Calipers & Rotor Package for Ferrari 458 Italia & Spider (P/N 2C59 & 2C60)

These are the same kits as we offer for Nissan GT-R.

Let's know how you think.
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Anyone here really tack their car with CCM rotors?

 

It's conceivable that you are one of the very few, as I almost didn't see any deep discussion in this forum about rotor/pad wear & replacement etc. like other forums that are heavily tracked such as ZR1, Porsche or GT-R etc.

 

CCM replacement or Iron conversion?