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Wheel balance issues after reinstalling wheels - 308

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Mike328, Feb 2, 2004.

  1. Mike328

    Mike328 F1 Rookie
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    I've noticed several times now that the state of my "wheel balance" on my 308 has changed (typically for the worse) after I take them off the car (brake work) and put them back on.

    Yesterday, when I took the car out, there was definitely a vibration at 50/60mph. I've had this before and had the (new) wheels rebalanced (1000mi ago), and it mostly went away. The problem then came back when I remounted the tires, went away when I remounted them again, and now it's back.

    My question: Is there some best way to put the wheels back on to prevent wheel instability? I use a typical torque pattern, and am just tightening "fairly" snugly with the factory lug nut torquer in the tool kit. I do have a torque wrench, but haven't really found an expert consensus on the torque settings for the nuts. I always torque in an "opposites" pattern.

    I can think of three things that "could" cause the problem:

    1. Having the car jacked up on one side when the wheels are mounted.
    2. Non-uniform torques across a set of five bolts cause the problem?
    3. Not torquing the bolts very much until the car is back on the ground.


    Any ideas or experiences with this?
     
  2. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    6,992
    Have your wheels (not tires) checked for roundness: latteral and radial runout.

    Have your brake+spindles checked for balance.

    It seems to me that you have a problem where when the tire is mounted in one position it appears balanced, whereas in other positions, it appears unbalanced.

    Did the balancer balance the tire/wheel combo ON the spindle? or on a machine off of the car?
     
  3. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Mike, are you running the superformance repop 16" rims? Hard to tell in your profile. Reinstalling them 10 times on the car wont affect balance if they were balanced off the car nor will the tightening sequence and torque value. I have seen in the past where a tire will slip around the rim, you can mark the tire and rim to verify this. This can happen under hard braking and ford had a big problem with this (different than the wilderness tire issue).
     
  4. Mike328

    Mike328 F1 Rookie
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    They are the Superformance repros.

    Interesting point about the tire slippage.

    In all cases the tires were balanced off the car on a machine. I've had the idea that if they could somehow balance the tires ON the car (is this static vs. dynamic balancing?) then they might be able to achieve a better balance.

    Are there places that will do this?
     
  5. cavallo_nero

    cavallo_nero Formula 3

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    just a hunch, but i have always noticed on my 308 that the wheels vibrate for a while while driving after the car has been sitting for a while (greater than a week or 2). after about 1/2 hour of driving, it returns to normal - dont know why, but this has happened to me a bunch of times. soon, i will put on the 16 inch wheels that i had mounted and see if they behave the same.
     
  6. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Balancing the tires statically is refering to 1 plane. Dynamic is 2 planes. On the car is road force balancing. I wouldnt road force balance a tire on most cars due to the fact you rotate tires. On a 308 rotation isnt possible unless you have non-directional tires and you swap from side to side, then the road force balance would cause a problem. Not worth it either way. You can always spin the rim on the balancer without the tire mounted to check straightness, runout and see if it zeros out without weights. It should zero out without a tire on it and no weights.
     
  7. TOM B

    TOM B Formula 3

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    I've had this happen a few times. The tire slips about 1/2 ". Enough to through it out of balance. Also, as a tire wears, it will require rebalancing .

    Tom
     
  8. hanknum

    hanknum Formula 3

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    A few things to consider:

    - Do you have/need hubcentric rings? Some aftermarket wheels require a hubcentric ring to make sure that the wheels are installed concentric with the hub/spindle.

    - In an ideal world the wheels w/o tires SHOULD come out straight, true, and no runout. I don't think this is always the case.

    - Tires slipping on the rim...I guess this is possible, but seems very unlikely. I know in drag racing, I've seen screws through the rim into the tire for this reason (I guess). Still seems unlikely.

    - Is the balancing shop reputable? Go for the road force balancing and see if that makes any diff. After they balance a wheel, have the wheel removed from the machine and then ask to have it re-spun. Does it still come out "zeroed" (possible problem with the machine)?

    - Did you knock off a weight while working on it?

    First thing is to isolate the problem. Is it in the wheel itself, or is it in the suspension or chassis? Try your old wheels...same problems?

    HTH

    Henry
     
  9. rivee

    rivee F1 Rookie

    Jan 20, 2002
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    Mike, I have the same problem.

    I just put my second set of Pilot Sports on (215/45/17 front 255/40/17 rear) and they were balanced at the tire shop. The first set I bought a couple of years ago were mounted and balanced at a different tire shop and could never get them to be shimmy free. They always had at least a little vibration to them at around 55 or 60 mph.

    When I get to around 55 or 60 mph they start vibrating slightly. When I turn the wheel at that speed the vibration magnifies significantly. I am starting to think that it's the spindles that may be off balance.
    I've replaced the front wheel bearings, put all new polyurathane bushings in the suspension including the sway bar and shock mounts.

    Anyone know where you get the spindles trued? Do they do it on the car or off?
     
  10. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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    The cheapest way to get around difficult balancing issues is to find a shop that does "on car" balancing. I have only needed this once, but it solved a consistent, and difficult to correct balance problem I had with a car many years ago.
     
  11. rivee

    rivee F1 Rookie

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    davehanda, what problem did u have and how did you fix it?
     
  12. pentastar

    pentastar Rookie

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    Mike, as Hanknum mentioned above, there are aluminum rings that Superformance will send you, no charge, upon request. I had a problem with vibration after buying the 16" repro wheels for my 1975 308GT4. Had them balanced many times by several reputable shops, including WWOC Ferrari dealer in Nanuet NY. No luck with any of these attempts. Then I contacted Superformance and they sent the two rings that you tap into the hub section of the wheel, and they somehow make the wheel site more perfectly on the hub, and sure enough the problem was finally vanquished. I would suggest trying this to see if it works for you. Superformance said that occasionally this problem does come up, though it's fairly rare, but that is why they made the rings, and this solution did work for me.
     
  13. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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    Rivee, I had a VW Rabbit many years ago (in college) that would always get an annoying vibration in the steering wheel around 80 mph. I had the front wheels balanced at two different shops, and still the problem persisted. I took it to a shop that balanced the wheels on the car, so it is balancing the brake disc as well, and no more problem. Smooth at 80 mph plus. Only issue was that if I ever took the wheel off to service the car, I had to put a drop of paint on the wheel stud and wheel itself so I could reinstall in the correct orientation.
     
  14. Mike328

    Mike328 F1 Rookie
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    Great info, guys!

    Since I'm done with the brake work (FINALLY my brakes are GOOD! All new rebuilt calipers, ALL new brake lines, new brake pads, and two new front rotors!), I'm fairly confident the wheels are staying on.

    Excellent information in this thread.

    My plan of action: Get superformance's rings in the pipeline. I hope I don't have to pay--I got the rims from a guy who knew Nick Scianna from ebay who bought the rims through Nick (F-Chat sponsor). They were basically brand new.

    Once the rings are in the pipeline, I plan to find a place that will do an on-car balancing. If that cures it, great. Otherwise, I'll try the hub rings and see if that won't get things in shape.

    I'll report back how things go.

    One thing is for sure: vibration in the steering wheel greatly detracts from the overall experience, and is one of the strongest factors in making the car feel unstable at 100mph!
     
  15. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3

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    most "serious" tire shope will offer ON CAR balancing and it is remarkable how nice it is

    Point of interest--you will notice in most brake rotors that there are clips or something attached to them for balancing--most hubs and rotosr are NOT balanced very well if at all. If replacing rotors you need to get those balanced also!!!!
     
  16. Mike328

    Mike328 F1 Rookie
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    I emailed superformance this morning and got a reponse back from them shortly after.

    Here's my email:

    Hello,

    I've got a set of your aftermarket reproduction 16" (7.5", 8.5" widths)
    Ferrari OEM-style wheels on my 1978 308.

    For several months now, I've tried to get these tires in balance but have
    had no luck. I've heard from a few people that for this rare problem, you
    have hub rings that can go in between the front wheels and the hubs, which
    can help out significantly with balance issues.

    I've currently had three shops balance the wheels/tires without any luck.
    Tires are fine. Vibration happens around 50/60mph and never goes away.

    Could I get a set of the hub rings?


    Thank you,

    --Mike Procopio




    And here's their response:

    Sure no problem. Whoever you purchased them from should have advised of this
    possibility.

    Will airmail 2 rings in the morning FOC.

    Regards

    Mike


    Nice!

    So, would you say I should try to use the rings first, and then balance things out "on the car," or should I skip the rings?
     
  17. 8valve

    8valve Formula 3

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    Mike, can you post a picture of these rings? And do I understand correctly that they are just a wheel mounting tool, and don't stay on the car?(Otherwise I think you won't have enough for all four corners....)
     
  18. Schatten

    Schatten F1 World Champ
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    #18 Schatten, Feb 4, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    they look like the following. (taken from audiworld)
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  19. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Balancing hubs isnt required because they are a machined round solid object of small diameter. The rotors are a different thing. I could be wrong but my 308 rotors do not have these added weights like domestic cars do. i beleive it is the better casting being more symetrical and a better machining process that makes balancing ferrari rotors not required either. Its in the wheels and if an on-car balance fixes it then do it but it may be the repop issue vs factory especially if they have these rings made up to offset a machining error when they were made.
     
  20. joeyy

    joeyy Karting

    Nov 11, 2003
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    Are these the rims that Lyle Tanner sells? i was thinking of buying a set over the summer and i didn't want any problems.
     
  21. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    If they are reproduction 16" QV rims, then they all come from the same supplier but are sold by different shops. SuperformanceUK supplies the rims and has the molds that make them.
     
  22. TOM B

    TOM B Formula 3

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    Call me finicky but having to pop-in rings to deal with the concentricity issues of a wheel is BS. Make it right or get into another business. I'd find a different wheel manufacturer.

    Tom
     
  23. theunissenguido

    theunissenguido Formula 3
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    Hi,Mike
    before you take of your wheels, make a mark to the wheel and also a mark on the brake-disc (with some removabel paint). The best you mark a bolt also.Take of the wheel and put the bolts in order of taking them of.When replacing the wheel, make shure the marks are at the same place as first, and the bolts also.
    This will reduce your probleme I think.
    Greetings Guido
     
  24. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3

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    My ORIGINAL rotors were off by quite a bit when I had them balanced. they required a lot of grinding on the edges to get them corrected. Also recall that the casting methods and metrology 20 yrs ago are nothing like today

    Also when I upgraded my brakes to something more realistic for a sportscar-- the new rotors were out of balance also. I have tested the rotors on my mercedes, tahoe, and jeep also--all were out of balance...some only required slight grinding on the edges, but some actually had to have weights bent and inserted into the cooling fins.
     
  25. Mike328

    Mike328 F1 Rookie
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    Well, I got the rings back today from superformance.

    Two aluminum rings. Just that.

    Apparently, you tap 'em in and then re-mount.

    Here's some info. The correct term is, "hubcentric rings."

    http://www.justforwheels.com/index.jsp?cat=hubcentric&sub=how

    Hubcentric rings are designed to fill in the gap between the hub of the car and the center bore of the wheel. Most wheel manufacturers design their wheels with a center bore large enough to fit on most cars. Therefore, since wheel manufactures make their center bore large enough to fit most cars, most wheel fitments have a gap between the hub and the center bore. This gap usually doesn't allow for the wheel to fit hubcentric but rather lugcentric which causes vibration. Therefore, to fill the gap and ensure the fitment is hubcentric, hub rings are used.

    So I've got two of them... Do I need four? I just emailed Superformance and we'll see what they say.

    --Mike
     

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