when is a Classische restoration a replica?

Werd.

 

Ferrari doesn't build these replica engines they farm it out to local shops. These engines are pure replica's as is the entire replica "125" these same shops built for Ferrari and Ferrari displays in their museum.

Under the Pebble Ferrari Judging rules are cars with replica engines judged as original if they're stamped by Classiche?

 

Thing is though, work commissioned by you or anyone else adds MUCH less value than Ferrari Classiche commissioned work. A Brandoli body commissioned by you would be a replica. A Brandoli body commissioned by Ferrari Classiche is authentic Ferrari. Big difference.

 

None of what Napolis or others are pointing out surprises me... it is a business and a useful source of supplemental income.

What becomes sad is when these sorts of things become self fulfilling prophecies where values are materially impacted through these processes, and in-turn, it starts to be a "value creation" tool... One where ultimately most of the "value created" is captured by Ferrari. There is value in avoiding fakes, and having some certainty, but if the market outsources the legwork and process to one particular source, that source has a monopoly on that value, and we know what that means...

 

Not necessarily. Just because Ferrari deems it so, doesn't make it so, unless everyone buys into that logic. If Ferrari outsourced some bodywork to some hack shop in China, but because they did so... you think that logic will still hold? By your writing it would. But it would destroy the credibility of the classiche concept. However, there are gray areas and Ferrari likely does and would push those boundaries for the sake of profit.

Just want to point out the flaw in that reasoning by taking it to an extreme.

 

This kind of thing becomes inevitable when cars become investments. Assuming things remain on the ridiculous path they have taken, I could see auction houses having the chutzpah to refuse accepting a car if not accompanied by a little red book. I can see it happening, but it won't because markets don't go strictly upwards forever. People are so scared of making a bad investment now, that many of them forget to see if the cars drive, sound, and look like they should, regardless of who is responsible for the work, and when. That's what matters. Whether it has a classiche block/body or not should mean jack if you get a smile while you drive it. You only live once - and you're very lucky if you live well enough that this is a issue you must live with.

Collectors can learn a lot from this guy:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttl-kF8Rbuo[/ame]

 

Laughable. Both are replica bodies.

In several cases work commissioned by me is a LOT more valuable than work commissioned by Ferrari.

Ferrari P 4/5 by Pininfarina is the most valuable Special Project in existence and strangely thanks to Luca is the only car made outside of Ferrari that became an official Ferrari.

P 4/5 Competizione is the most valuable 430 Scuderia in Existence and the only one, as modified by me, to win an FIA Championship for Alternative Energy. It's also the fastest Ferrari around the NS all of which adds value.

 

Well it's is clearly marked with a "Classiche stamp" for all the world to see!!
So, there is no doubt it would be confused as "original" despite the number stamping used.

If it's any consolation, I have heard rumor, that for all their efforts, the new motors "often are not good"....

So, the old girls are still the best!!!

 

Origional replica, George Washingtons axe. Many of the older cars are not origional they are as origional, with chasis plate provenance.

Whats really origional is the driving and driving experience, something too many "collectors" these days seem to totaly miss.

 

yellen and you print of a dollar....

which one is real ?

 

False equivalency, pandering tot he investment crowd.

Paper has no real value, so extra value is attached to the one "backed" by a Gov.

Cars have mutiples of values, because they can actualy be used as opposed to just admired in a historic context.


I make a new 1865 gold 1oz gold coin. Its worth what 1oz of gold is worth plus a little extra, the one from 1865 has extra value due to its "untranished " history.

There are 4 cars all technicaly identical in terms of specs and visualy identical.

1)One was rolled into a meuseum after a famous race.
2)One was continously raced and "rebuilt" many times over 50 years, its questionable what remains from 50 years ago.

3)One was "rebuilt from a few scraps of metal but has valid claim to a dtata plate.
4)One is an authentic tool room copy, perfect repor in every sense.



Car 1) the famous one is worth the most $$$ its strictly as raced, has patina and endless provenance. But its a staic exhibit, or moves slowly under its own power. To use it would be to diminsh $$$ value. The part mising is we wont see it run in anger ever.

Car 2) Its been rebuilt and raced so many times no one is sure what really remains, its worth less $ than car 1 but it has a continous story to tell and may well be used as designed. Lets say half the metal present is from period it may even be a bitsa.

Car 3) Someoen found a twisted burned chassis buried in a field, the chassis lays claim to a reckognised historic serial number. Its "restored" In reality its a replica in everything but chassis plate. It may be authenticated by classiche. It could even be worth more than Car 2, but the only origional bits are a few screws and a data plate. The 11 million burned Gt40 comes to mind, along with more than one TR.

Car 4, its tool room acurate, indistinguishable from car 3, maybe built by the same "restorer" it just lacks provenance claim, its worth the least $$$ because of that. However it probably gets the most vigorous sue, and in that way is a more authetic representation of what these cars were origionaly about than the more static or barely used precious examples..

Its a continum between perfect preserved historic museum pieces and tool room recreations. Where a car falls along the line, its origionality and period history detrimines $ value.

All of which is to miss the point that cars are by nature not static and the major part of their enjoyment is from the dynamic drivign perspective. In that case car 4 may be the most "valuable" to some. That so many miss this is the debasement of what seperates cars from other physical "art"
Imagine the best meal or vacation you ever had,or a meal you grandparent told you about, you can experience it over and over, it gets better with time. the meal tastes no less delicious for having been cooked today than 50 years ago, thats what driving a great car is about, regardless of whether that car has been continously rebuilt, built from scrap or wholly built, the experience is what the car is, how it was made and materials used, not when it was built.

Whats real, well whats real is the experience from the driving, the sound the speed, not when the object was allegedly made.

 

Thanks Mario, That is a GREAT video!

 

"Laughable. Both are replica bodies."

+10000.

 

Not laughable at all. Ok. The body commissioned by Ferrari would be an authentic replica. The body commissioned by you, me or anyone else is not.

Very impressive that your P4/5 Comp car won a championship. How many cars were in the class of the championship it won?

 

Logically speaking based on what has been posted here, your 0854 restoration is probably at a level higher than what would be the case if it was sent to Classiche.

 

I am confused. I saw the 0538M Monza at a small car show in Mercer Island WA around 1993.
David Smith had just restored it. He told me that he had recently found the correct engine to put in the car. I forget where he told me he had found the engine.

The barchetta » 0538M entry makes it appear that after a gap during the years 1959 - 1991 when little about the car was known, William Shacker had the car and showed it at the
FCA National Meet in 1992. What engine was in the car then?

Can anyone fill in the 59 - 91 history?

Where did David Smith get the engine?

I guess that I could just ask him.

 

Shaker showed 0538M at the '92 national meet with the small-block Chevy engine that had been in it for decades at that point, likely the same Corvette engine mentioned in the '59 Barchetta entry.

Off the top of my head, I know the car was supposedly clocked at Daytona doing 180+MPH with the Vette motor, and at one point the owner was using it on his daily commute to work through Death Valley. He fitted it with an airspeed indicator after getting pulled over, and that was still in place when the car came into the shop I worked at in Leesburg, VA during the summer of 1990. The goal was to get the car running so the owner's kid could drive it to his high school prom. One afternoon I was riding shotgun in it during a trip around the block when the throttle stuck and that Vette engine tried to kill us. That was hairy!

Anyway, you can read about the history of the car and its restoration in Prancing Horse #110. I bought the washers they mention finding in the bodywork at a local hardware store. Good times.

 

It is a grey area... for most (all?) vintage Ferraris the original bodies were built by various coach builders commissioned by Ferrari.

Certainly not original, regardless.

 

Great story. It's so cool you did that, and that the engine eventually found its way back to 0538M.

Ha, right on. I know the Monza engine swap part of the story; I first heard it from your dad, actually.

I'm just wondering what was under 0438MD's hood between '93 and the time when the Classiche folks decided it was a better idea to build something new from scratch.

 

Gee Bryan, tell us what you really think! I have no dog in the fight but I agree 100%. I was at Classiche not long after they started and it was actually funny. No idea what a 750 Monza was! That was funny. However they had some great cars there. The Moss 250SWB, 335S, 750Monza, and a 400! There were about 25 cars. I took some photos which later they told me was a bit naughty but no problems. Jean Todt was there for some reason as well and was quite friendly. Note that the 400 mentioned was not a 400SA but a late 70's/early 80's car.

 

"The body commissioned by Ferrari would be an authentic replica."

The he/she/or entity who commissions the work to create the "Replica" if other than the actual original artist/producer/coach builder/constructor/manufacturing entity etc. has no bearing and does not bestow "Authenticity" on the reproduced finished product.

Webster's dictionary definition of replica: An exact reproduction (as of a painting) executed by the original artist.

Therefore any reproduction chassis, engine or body work etc. produced by any company or organization other than the original chassis, engine, coach builder or manufacture producer is not considerable as "authentic" in any manner beyond its correctness to the original in construction/visual appearance /materials content or detail etc. and should only considered as nothing more than possibly a well executed "copy" of the "original manufactures product".

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zGw9PQuK7A

 

When I was a turn marshal, I watched Porfirio Rubirosa race with a very peculiar style. He went through each corner with a continuous series of "straight, turn, straight, turn", sawing away at the wheel for all he was worth. Not the fastest driver; just average. I now realize that it was in this car (which never looked so good).

 

How absolutely beautiful!!!! After seeing this, all that has to be said to the Classiche haters is........well, you decide!