when is a Classische restoration a replica?

It's interesting to note that if Ferrari manufacture (or have manufactured), a brand new engine complete for a vintage car then it is viewed by some as being a replica engine.

What if the original block was okay but the crankshaft had snapped in half and so Ferrari had to make (or have made), a brand new crankshaft? - Would the new crankshaft be deemed a "replica" crankshaft?, or would it be deemed as just a replacement part?

How about if all 12 pistons and con-rods needed replacing with brand new items? - Would they be deemed "replica" piston/con-rods?

How about if the car needed the complete cylinder-head assemblies replacing and the only way to do it was with brand new complete cylinder-heads? - Would they be "replica" cylinder-heads?

What if every part of the engine was fine and re-usable except for the engine block? If Ferrari had a brand new engine block made, would it be deemed just a replacement block or would it be deemed a "replica" block?

At what percentage of new parts used to build an engine, does the engine go from being a replacement part to a replica part?

If you went to the expense of having a brand new complete gearbox made for a vintage car to the original design, would it be a replacement part or a "replica" gearbox? (and if were deemed to be just a replacement part, why would it be deemed to be any different to an engine assembly? - After all, both an engine and a gearbox are mechanical assemblies made up of many other parts).



I would also add that to be totally fair to Ferrari, as I understand it (and please correct Me if I'm wrong here!), if Ferrari do have a brand new engine manufactured for a vintage car to comply with their Classische programme, although the block is stamped with the original engines engine-number, it also has an additional character stamped with the number (a star I believe?), to identify that that it is a factory authorised replacement engine based on the original engines design.

Were they to be trying to hide the fact that the engine is a brand new replacement by stamping on the original engine-number only without any additional markings, then that would be far more dubious!

 

I find this thread fascinating, because a good portion of the italian car industry was sub contracted. Who asked for Classiche to be stated? Were they expecting the Ferrari factory to time warp back to former times to accomplish this work?

 

Thanks for the Prancing Horse Reference. It answered most of my question.

 

I think you have a good point. Maybe hard for some to digest.

 

Supplier of those "new original" engines are Hall & Hall in the UK.

Ciao!
Walter

 

It is my understanding that a restoration should also contain preservation. I doubt that FC spend too much thoughts on that when it comes to coachwork....


Ciao!
walter

 

Definition of authentic in English (Oxford dictionary):

adjective

1 Of undisputed origin and not a copy; genuine: the letter is now accepted as an authentic document

1.1 Made or done in the traditional or original way, or in a way that faithfully resembles an original: the restaurant serves authentic Italian meals every detail of the film was totally authentic

1.2 Based on facts; accurate or reliable: an authentic depiction of the situation

1.3 (In existentialist philosophy) relating to or denoting an emotionally appropriate, significant, purposive, and responsible mode of human life.

I am sorry to say that it is a fact that Ferrari Classiche has failed on all these definitions in the past.

The marketing blurb is that Ferrari Classiche are the only ones who know what is authentic or not. The facts of the matter are that they had lost all knowledge and they are now trying to re-learn their own history (in some very real ways over the backs of others who had more passion for their brand for decades than they did). They are rapidly gaining ground and getting better, but just because something has a stamp from FC does not mean it is

1 Original
1.1 Made or done in the original way
1.2 Based on facts
1.3 Emotionally appropriate and responsible

So your statement, in my knowledge which is based on the reports directly to me personally of some of the most respected people in this field, and also on my personal experience with FC, is - at the very least, and I'm being generous here - not correct for every single case.

Ferrari Classiche has used bully tactics in the past, present and undoubtedly in the future, to small shops, respected craftsmen, their own clients, and basically anyone who has had a valid reason to question what they are doing, and that is one thing I do not like AT ALL.

I hope that this way of running their business will change, but with the current market as it is, I have little hope.


Onno

 

How many Classiche customers ordering a new engine at the factory are informed that their car will soon beat with an British heart?

Are classiche open and honest about their supply chain?

 

Sal is pretty special. He began on Diesel Submarines, moved on to Nuclear ones, worked at the factory, fixed 308 overheating, 456 side windows and AC rattle for them, was Chief on TP's 355 Championship Car, did work for me that won major awards and the accolades of people such as PR, PO, WO, worked on P 4/5 C enabling it to become the highest placing Hybrid Sportscar in a major endurance race beating Porsche, winning an FIA Championship Cup, doing an amazing road conversion to her, restoring a wide range of cars including our Ford MK-IV, Duesenberg, Baja Boot, T 70, 159, Dino Competizione of course with help from our friends in Modena, PF, Troy,MI, and other places who also do great work. His work on 0854 and 512S Modulo is really something and 0854 will be at Quail, Modulo at Villa d'Este and our MK-IV once again at Pebble in 2016 New photos on our FB page.

Hope U and Yours are Well

 

Quoted For Truth

 

If a new engine is made with todays materials, casting process, and CNC machinery, how can it be more authentic than the one that came out of the next car that came off of the assembly line when both cars were built at the factory.

 

These replica engines have one advantage.

If you have one in your car you have a Classiche Restoration.

At Pebble Ferrari gives a trophy for the best Classiche Restoration.

If you want a guaranteed trophy at Pebble all you have to do is enter when there are no other Classiche Restorations entered and Bob's your uncle.

 

Is the way the Classiche operate any different to how things work with other extremely valuable commodities - Such as in the art world?

Find yourself a Warhol painting and you have to get it verified by The Andy Warhol Art Authentication Board to have it declared legitimate in order to for it to be worth anything or even be saleable (and frankly, they seem to be even more of a Law unto themselves than you feel the Clasiche is!).

The problem with the Ferrari vintage car market is that it is flooded with people making fakes/replicas/reproductions etc., etc., in order to cash-in on unsuspecting buyers.

For those in the know, such as we have on Fchat, that's not such a problem, but there are plenty of buyers out there who are not on Fchat and are not expert enough in vintage Ferrari's to not get caught out.

To make matters worse, you're not talking of a price variation of a few thousand Dollars, you're talking hundreds if not Millions of Dollars in price variation.

If there was no one whatsoever carrying out the type of work that the Classiche do then Fchat would be flooded with buyers complaining how they spent Millions on an "original" vintage car only to find out later that it actually isn't what they were told it is and is only worth a fraction of what they paid.

The Classiche programme at least makes some effort to protect owners and buyers by laying down the criteria for what they deem to be acceptable or not for a car to be officially recognised as being an original car.

It's not a perfect programme and you're never going to please everyone (lets be honest here, there are some on here who get their knickers in a twist because a 250 GTO has had body parts replaced with parts made on an English wheel rather than being hand beaten, even though once the final paint is applied there will be no noticeable difference between the two methods whatsoever!).

No one is forced to use the Classiche programme (unlike The Andy Warhol Art Authentication Board!), and to some like Jim (who let's be honest has a far better knowledge of these cars than the vast majority of us on here with the exception of maybe one or two), they're happy not to bother with it and not give two hoots about others opinions on the lack of Classiche certificates for their cars.

For other less knowledgeable people though, they want the reassurance of the factory certificate to help protect them.

The Classiche programme is not perfect but I'm pretty sure it's a lot better than having no programme whatsoever leaving people at the mercy of unscrupulous dealers/sellers/forgers etc., etc to fleece them!

 

As I bought mine from Andy (I also bought my Lola from him) and my Picasso from Picasso's daughter I don't worry about that either.

Kind of like buying Dino Competizione and Modulo directly from PF.

Using reputable people like MM for example to investqgate providence is never a bad idea but believing that a replica Monza engine built in the UK many years after Enzo died is anything but a replica engine even though for a large sum Ferrari Classiche says it's "Authentic" is another matter.

Enzo did a lot of things and those things are History. Classiche isn't something Enzo set up and Classiche's actions in matters like 0818 and the LM where two cars became one speak for themselves.

If one wishes to pay Ferrari Classiche buckets of money to "Authenticate" their car or provide their car with a replica engine in light of Classiche's past actions on the LM, 0818, etc, etc:

Kewl.

 

But the same could be said of any of the other Pebble Beach categories!

Find a class where it is highly unlikely that anyone else will have a car in that class, take your car along that qualifies for the category and "Bob's your Uncle", you'll walk away with a trophy.

However, should someone else turn up with a car that classifies for the category and you might not win.



As I have previously posted, when does a replacement part become a "replica" part though?

If You needed an replacement crankshaft for one of your cars and an original, period crankshaft was no longer available so you had to have a brand new one made using modern methods, would it be a "replica" part or just a replacement part?

If it's the latter then why should a replacement engine be any different? After all, even though it's an assembly, it's still just another car part.

Added to that, where a new engine has been made and fitted to a car under the Ferrari Classiche programme, they do make it obvious with the engine stamping that it is a replacement engine don't they? (with the "star" stamping I believe?).

If My thinking is correct then any Pebble Beach Judge should be aware of it and make any adjustments to their marking as required.

And if these engines were not being re-manufactured for the cars then what is the alternative when the original engine has been lost over the decades or totally destroyed beyond use? You can't just got to you're local vintage Ferrari part dealer to buy a period replacement that has been sat on the shelf for 55 years.

So should the cars never be on the road again because the original engine is no longer with the car?

Surely it's better that some effort has been made to make a "correct spec" engine for the car rather than fitting one from another model? (or worse still, another manufacturer! - I suspect a 1963 250 GTO fitted with a corvette V8 would be even more frowned upon than a 250 GTO with a factory authorised "correct spec" engine in it).

Again, as I have previously posted, if Ferrari are fitting brand new engines into cars in the Classiche programme and stamping them with the original engine number only, with nothing to identify it as being a replacement engine then that is out of order, but if they are stamping the original number on the block (due to knowing that the original engine no longer exists), and also stamp an identifying mark with the number to highlight that it's a replacement engine then I can't see what the fuss is about.



Just to add that I was writing this post out whilst you were replying to My previous post so I apologise for any duplication of the subject matter!

 

Andy's Lola.
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I'm surprised you've bothered with a Picasso TBH - It's not one of Citroen's most adventurous cars!

(Or am I thinking of the wrong Picasso perchance! ) :
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Perchance...

 

It can't, is not, never will be and is simply only a "reproduction copy" of what the "Original Equipment Manufacture" made in the day. Same for body work, chassis, or any other non OEM manufactured components/parts that may be incorporated in the restoration, rebuild, preservation etc. process performed on the subject vehicle.

 

I owned a Corvette shop for many years and we used to Joke about how if a car were to of come from the factory with a pile of dog poop behind the seat, the owner having it restored would probably want the original pile to still be there when it was finished.

 

So well put.The days of the 1950s and 60s, even one might say the 1970s are gone. If I only knew then what I know now.Well it's never to late they say.I am glad I at least experienced the some of the magic. Thanks goes to the likes of Ed Niles and so many others who have kept it all alive. And of course where would we be without Ferrari Chat.If you want more I recommend Denise McCluggage's book "By Brooks Too Broad For Leaping" I wish I knew where this title came from but don't miss this one.It captures what the vintage years really were all about in really excelant prose. Enjoy. tonga's crew

 

+1

Take the Alfa Romeo G1 #6018. History is being distorted all over the place. This car is now being incorrectly displayed/discussed as an ex-Enzo Ferrari race car ... massive SIGH.(Alfa Romeo G1: Enzo Ferrari?s first Alfa arrives into MEF)
Pete
ps: Enzo drove an ALFA 40/60, not a or any G1 in any race.

I think I'll just make a slightly accurate replica and then start making all sorts of claims and cash in ...

 

You are not thinking Italian ...
Pete

 

But that exactly is the point: you`ll get a NEW engine, made by a NEW prodution process, without any traces of the legendary period. None of the famous drivers of the 50s/60s used revved it up.

What`s a painting by Picasso without any traces of him?

The good thing is that FC munched in an FC-engine-no.

Ciao!
Walter