when is a Classische restoration a replica?

I believe the entire poem was included in the Preface to her book.

Maybe George skipped right into the main chapters!!


Many thanks, Sir, for your inclusion of it here.
*salute*

I guess these cars have become so valuable, people lose sight of the fun factor.
Of course a machine idle because of "no longer available" parts is not much fun.

I fear for the modern plastic ones, they will fall to the crusher in dorves.

Sorry for the highjack...

 

in the post directly above yours Jim said totally the opposite.

"Luca, Classiche and I discussed this before I bid on 350 Can AM 0858. Even though it would have brung more money as a "Red Book" P4 they all said it wasn't any longer an original P4 and if a buyer wanted to give them a boat load of money they'd fit a replica P4 body, engine and other bits and Classiche it as "A Ferrari of Historical Importance" which I think is fair."


on another note - your obviously a huge fan of Classiche and seem to infer their magic touch suddenly means a car is totally authentic and has no stories etc.
So what say you about the huge cockup that they made with #0818 (and several other cars) when they certified the fake as the real deal ?

 

I have my grandfather’s axe.
I’ve replaced the handle
I’ve replaced the head
I have my grandfather’s axe.

 

Classiche's tone above regarding 0858 is not consistent with how they viewed it in 2013. The Certification Committee would not authorise any modification on the 350 Can Am. They would not attest it as anything other than a 350 Can Am, White Book or Red. The car was Red Book attested as a 350 Can Am in 2008.

 

The conversation I had with Luca and Classiche happened, as I said it did, right before the last RM factory Auction, which happened in 2009.

 

Sorry, I just can't see Classiche using terms like a potential customer giving them a boat load of money to fit a replica P4 body, especially to yourself, a potential customer. Sounds like they were willing to be bribed. I just can't see them being seen to be so unprofessional.

 

Jim isn't discussing hearsay, he is telling you what Classiche and LDM told him directly face to face.
he may well have put it into his own terminology - but the gist is perfectly clear.
As such I'm not sure how you can dispute it, unless you were party to that conversation ?



btw you responded re the above issue, but what about my 2nd point - re #0818 ? (see below)

"on another note - your obviously a huge fan of Classiche and seem to infer their magic touch suddenly means a car is totally authentic and has no stories etc.
So what say you about the huge cockup that they made with #0818 (and several other cars) when they certified the fake as the real deal ?"

 

I can only assume, and hope, that what was said was said facetiously.

I know a brief history of 0818 so am not in possession of all the facts, so not qualified to comment.

 

yes of course that's just what they would be to a known collector of classic ferraris, who had flown over to the factory for an auction of classic ferraris including the one in question.

Are you for real ?

the facts are that the classiche department lost all and any credibility they may have had, when they certified a replica with spotty history (owned by a big name) and as such said the real deal which had a clear and continuous history of ownership back to when it was new was a fake.

 

"Classiche provides a legal fiction." +1 Best and most charitable definition yet

 

+2

 

what a lovely turn of phrase

 

I think a lot of the "original" craze really boils down to semantics and how much you really want to split the hair.

I would generally consider an engine "original" even if it has received a rebuild/reconditioning such as new valve springs, oversize pistons, reconditioned heads with new or reconditioned valve seals, new valves, etc. These are wear items. You drive the car, especially in anger as many early cars were intended to be used, and things are going to wear out. The racing world tends to not be quite as worried with originality when it comes to the engine/powertrain, but Ferrari folks seem to be somewhat of an exception on some of this.

I think the key here is retaining the original block. That seems to be the sticking point in most people's eyes and I tend to agree with it.
Would I consider a Classiche block to be an original engine? No way. I would word it "original engine type", or something along these lines, but it most certainly is not the original engine as Ferrari shipped the car when new.

A similarity or two that I can think of is L88 corvettes (67-69) or ZL1 Camaros (69) which received a service replacement engine block. Generally these are similar L88 kit, but had no VIN stamped in them. I think when it comes to value these days, there is a very slight value hit for it, but because they were generally replaced in period, it's essentially inconsequential.

 

I agree.

Wear items simply mean a car was used/raced.

Any in period repair IMO is fine.

50 years after the period replacement of an entire engine with a complete replica engine made outside of the factory in the UK is another.

 

Born-with still brings premium, unless it's an SR block car w/big provenance.

Guessing same holds true w/Ferrari where, for example, a LeMans-winning chassis might trump all others, even w/replacement motor.

So ...

On like-cars with non-original engines, would a Classiche motor be the preferred replacement?

 

"On like-cars with non-original engines, would a Classiche motor be the preferred replacement?"

IMHO my vote: The highest preference and value would be for:

#1 A period tipo correct spec Ferrari period produced and supplied replacement unstamped spare engine.

#2 A period tipo correct spec original Ferrari period produced engine from another no longer existing car.

#3 A period tipo correct spec engine assembled from various correct specification Ferrari produced period new or used
parts (Castings and accessories etc). (Consumables don't matter: Pistons rods etc).

#4 A period tipo spec original Ferrari period produced engine from another existing car.

#5 A Classiche assembled, baptized, funkadero stamped correct tipo spec engine whatever that may be no matter where
the parts to put it together came from.

How about a poll kids?

 

I was just about to post something similar when I saw your post. My rankings are below (with an attempt to define specific terminology for each engine type). Number 5 could be higher depending on who commissioned/performed the work.

1. “Original Engine” – original engine, matching numbers
:
(very large gap)
:
2. “Correct Engine” – correct tipo vintage engine, not number matching
3. “Authorized Reproduction” – Classiche commissioned/stamped reproduction engine
4. “Period Engine” – correct displacement vintage engine, incorrect tipo (numbers obviously not matching)
5. “Correct Reproduction” – individually commissioned, correct reproduction engine (equal to or better quality than Classiche)
6. “Hot Rod” – incorrect displacement vintage engine, usually larger/newer hence the term "hot rod" (which is not a very good name for the category, but all that comes to mind at the moment)

 

What would you say about the "Sanction II" cars, like the Aston Martin Zagatos and lightweight E-Types, which were manufactured by their original manufacturers, albeit long after the original production period ended?

See:

DB4 GT Zagato Sanction II and III « Aston Martins.com

https://www.classicdriver.com/en/article/cars/jaguar-build-six-missing-lightweight-e-types-after-50-years

Lightweight E-type

 

Just out of interest when a crashed/crumpled Mclaren F1 finds itself sent back to Woking to be put back together again, just how much of that work is outsourced by Mclaren if any? Are those companies the same ones that originally made parts for the car 20 years ago?

I read that Atkinson's now sold car was mostly new after his two offs during his ownership.

In turn, would a British made engine fitted to a Ferrari during a classiche restoration have much affect on it value and do Ferrari make it clear to owners where their outsourced parts originate?

 

Works replicas

 

How long do people feel a Classiche Certification (red book) is good for before it needs to be "reverified" or "renewed"? If a car starts as original once (when born), I would assume it starts as Classiche'd once (at time of red book). How old and dusty do we think red books can get before folks won't trust that they still represent the current state of the car?

 

I have had numerous requests to "borrow" original parts, by people who are submitting cars for Certification. They want to "rent " the parts until the car passes and gets it's Red Book, then they will return the correct parts to me and reinstall their non-original parts. I choose to not participate in these schemes. However, it tells you how much you should trust a Certified car.

 

+1 You are not the Lone Ranger. I have had heard the same from others in casual conversations as well. Thanks again for your continuing contribution and the conformational information.

 

This would be rather profitable for Ferrari (obviously). Even though the cars would not be road legal unless modernised a little for road use they would no doubt sell like hot pizza. Would you buy one and how much would you pay? A few new GTOs would be an interesting new market dynamic!

 

Was it 100 250 GTO's they were supposed to produce, it is a car of similar complexity to the lightweight e types so you just never know. Brand new Classiche versions heading to a Ferrari World near you soon. Even at a 10th of the price of an original I imagine there would be a healthy profit in it, I have read a toolroom copy can be produced for under a million pounds and certain owners have already gone that route in order to preserve their original car.