when is a Classische restoration a replica?

In the 1920s and 30s both Bentley and Aston Martin built "replicas" of their LeMans winning machines and sold them on the open market as replicas. I think Fraser Nash may have done the same thing considering their success in the M.M. and other long distance road races. Should Classiche consider this at some future time? At the least these could be marketed and clearly labeled as such with a unique nose badge and script.Just a thought. tonga's crew

 

Isn't that what contemporary homologation production runs are? Street versions of current competition machines.

 

In 1960-61 they had to build 100 copies of 250GT passo corto to get it homologated again. Earlier homologation dropped when the wheelbase changed. 100 units was reached by June 1961 and the 250GT moved from prototype category back into granturismo. GTO did not need to be homologated separately as it is only a revision (comp/62) on an already holomologated configuration and this was also reflected by the nick name GTO - granturismo omologato.

Cheers, Kare

 

"How old and dusty do we think red books can get before folks won't trust that they still represent the current state of the car?"[/QUOTE]

In light of the current posts in this thread about "Attempted Parts Rentals or Borrowed for Classiche Inspection Verification Purposes" posted by DWR and myself and now hearing rumors of this practice of parts substitution actually being conducted by Classiche authorized dealers who submit clients cars applications it is fair to state that the only thing that a Red or any another color book can say about current state of the car contained therein is that the photos contained therein were taken with the parts shown on the car in the photos were there when those photos were taken. Just take into consideration the time it would take to remove those parts after the photos were taken and the total cost of the application. There is absolutely no guarantee those parts are on the car in the present time post the books issuance or that this is the cars current state of condition.

It is more than abundantly clear the entire Classiche process is subject to misinformation, corruption, fraud etc. and IMHO a total waste of time and $, but if it makes one comfortable it can give one something to brag about on the Concours lawn and add something to throw into the auction marketing program mix which may potentially lure a better result at sale.

Let the buyer beware. Best bet is to do your own homework and make sure to have qualified, competent, knowledgeable, independent, expert no skin in the game inspection and verification of all details regarding any issues surrounding a possible purchase including the current title, purchase contract legal paperwork, originality, history, provenance, mechanical condition etc. before bidding on any auction lot or tendering any funds for payment in any privately conducted sale.

 

Completely fits with the current Ferrari direction, ie. meaningless carbon brakes on a road car, unnecessary carbon fibre panels also on road cars, flappy paddle gear change that can change gears in milli-seconds so you can save time on your trip to Starbucks, etc. I suppose it always has been like this, ie. overhead cam engines, multiple carbs ...

The thing that would worry me if I was rich enough to purchase historic Ferraris is that if Ferrari decide to build say a new engine and stamp it with serial number XXXX, that immediately becomes the ACTUAL XXXX engine and if you have the older XXXX engine it has lost it's providence. While this is illogical to us outside the factory and non-Italians, Ferrari have the view that they made the engine originally so they are in a unique position to remake whatever they like as they ARE Ferrari.

What they are missing, in their rush to make further profits, is this attitude could back fire on them and make historic Ferraris an investor beware situation.

On one hand we have the really knowledgeable buyers knowing that a new engine with the right numbers made under Classiche is not as valuable as a completely original car, and on the other hand we have original car owner's (maybe with only parts of the car that they are trying to piece together to restore) having bad dreams about Ferrari deciding that their car is missing from their collection and resolving that my making it.

I've heard rumours of Ferrari/Classiche making a 250LM for somebody involved in F1 ... for example
Pete

 

"could back fire on them and make historic Ferraris an investor beware situation."


Your late to the party. It already has been amply demonstrated the investor beware situation has been the case for a looooong time.


"I've heard rumours of Ferrari/Classiche making a 250LM for somebody involved in F1 ... for example"


Wouldn't be a surprise in light of their "restoration/reconstruction whatever version anyone wants to believe or call it" of the infamous LM chassis#6045

 

That is the million dollar question.
I would suspect that period engine, as opposed to a factory replacement classiche blocked engine (over which we can split the hair 1000 ways to Sunday), would demand a premium price.

 

Not to say that I wave the Classiche Flag with pride but this is a very negative thread. I was at Classiche last summer and was blown away by all of the records available for each car including blueprints for gas tanks, radiators and such as well as personal correspondence. I was shown hand written message from a man who ordered a Lusso to change the color from blue to dark red, that's cool. No one else has that stuff. Maybe some of the experts here knows specific examples but from what I have seen, when Ferrari certifies a car with the correct type engine, not the "matching numbers" engine, they stamp it with a horse. I don't think they are trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes.
I know of a 275 engine that WAS matching the chassis number but in the late 60's was altered for tax purposes. Classiche determined from the numero interno that the neigne was correct. They re-stamped it the correct number but stamped a horse on the block to prove that it was "altered" by Classiche. Seems legit? does this mean that the car is 20% less than an "unalterd" 4 cam? The market will react.
At the end of the day, I would rather have a 750 Monza with a correct type and accurate repro engine in the chassis than a Chevy engine.

It seems that many very valuable Ferrari's can't get a Red Book" but are eligible for the "White Book" which has a massive history on the car and does its best to chart the changes and modifications. Call me naive but I really don't think its all that bad!

I happen to know of a few Replicas that people have tried to bribe Classiche to certify and they simply turn their backs on these requests.

Isn't it cool that there are dedicated owners and craftsmen who can return these cars to a state that's as original as possible? The race cars were disposable. Are we really going to flip if a TR doesn't have a FEMAC fuel pump? Does that mean the car sucks? Would we rather have SWB's with misshapen bodies full of dents from race abuse or have nice, straight and accurate bodies that may have been remade. You really can't have both. A few years ago a Yellow 250 TR sold at an auction. The car was advertised as extremely original. However, further down in the description it was written that shortly after being sold, someone removed the TR body and installed a TdF body. Now, this "original" TR has a Pontoon body fitted. Isn't this great!! We can't go back to 1958 and change history but now, we can view a car in its original configuration that has benefited from a dedicated owner and skilled craftsmen.

 

First time I've heard of the "white book". This sounds better IMO.
Pete

 

As others have pointed out, it's a for profit program. I would bet that ferrari knows less about the vintage cars then a really good independent. IMHO it's a garbage program.

 

Fontana: Steve, I am not so sure this is a "negative" thread, so much as it is a reflection of actual experiences with Classiche. I was waiting for somebody to bring up the situation of the recent 275 block restamping. I am not sure my experience is with the same car as yours, but the situation I am familiar with involves an engine that still had the ORIGINAL stamping. Classiche milled it off the block and restamped it with the "official" Classiche stamp. How would you like to be the owner of that car?

 

+1

 

"No one else has that stuff."

I believe Marcel Massini, Hilary Rabb, Jr. Luigi Chinetti Jr., The Revs Institute Archive and many others in possession of very interesting materials, records, and documents could and would disagree with that statement.

"I know of a 275 engine that WAS matching the chassis number but in the late 60's was altered for tax purposes. Classiche determined from the numero interno that the engine was correct. They re-stamped it the correct number but stamped a horse on the block to prove that it was "altered" by Classiche. does this mean that the car is 20% less than an "unalterd" 4 cam?"

Not necessarily 20% but the Classiche re-stamping certainly does not bestow any sort of benefit of "original unaltered state or further authenticity" to it and in addition it has artificially altered the original chain of historical record for no other reason other than creating a financial profit of Classiche.

"Isn't it cool that there are dedicated owners and craftsmen who can return these cars to a state that's as original as possible?"

Yes, but if you are implying Classiche are the only dedicated craftsmen that can do so you are mistaken. Classiche don't do any bodywork, painting, manufacturing of components, etc. themselves in house and primarily subcontract the work to outside firms and add mark up to the cost to said owners for the purpose of creating (those dirty words again) profit for Classiche.

Those dedicated owners could easily recruit one of the many independent, better versed and more experienced experts (many who were there in the day who witnessed and know the actual cars original delivered specification) in the community (F. Chat) to support and help at lower fees. They sometimes have shown here to actually done so for free (as with DWR and other contributors) helping to provide information, guidance, etc. as well as direct one on how to find and employ the same firms in Italy, domestically or elsewhere to accomplish better or the same end results for far less cost.

"Would we rather have SWB's with misshapen bodies full of dents from race abuse or have nice, straight and accurate bodies that may have been remade."

Since you are asking the question of "we" I can't answer for anyone else here other than myself but my reply to you is: You bet I would want it lumpy and bumpy if it was the original coachwork. It can only be original once and craftsmanship, patience, and modern preservation technique can accomplish amazing results. Speaking of results, time and again in most cases it has been proven that the higher the period content originality is the better the sales results are.

 

Many of the aforementioned people got their information from the Ferrari Factory!

When describing cars being returned to "original configuration", I am not referring to Classiche specifically, I know that they don't do all the work but they are extremely knowledgeable and have huge folders on every car. The Yellow TR (not sure the serial number) that I mentioned wasn't restored at Classiche, I was simply making the point that "you can't have your cake and eat it too"
There are very very few Ferrari Race cars, not street cars but race cars that have original bodies or all original components. Based on what some people are writing on this thread, they would rather have cars with body work pushed into the tires, grilles hanging out, broken wheels, windshields...

I dare say that I love seeing replicas, they are so cool and are a blast to behold. Id rather see a SWB replica than a rotted out GTE in a junk yard. No one can or will restore a GTE or other 2+2 when they are too far gone.

Whether you like it or not, Classiche, Mercedes Benz Classic, Jaguar Heritage and from what I understand Porsche are all trying to find profit in dealing with their classic cars.

One of the first cars certified by Classiche was a 275GTB. The owner of the car tried to buy the original matching engine but the seller wanted an absurd amount of money for it. He took the car to car to Classiche and they made a correct type/spec engine and stamped a horse on the pad. Is this good or bad? Its making a car that would otherwise be off the road, its not "original" and worth less than a true matching numbers car.... slippery slope.

I'm certainly not saying they're perfect but when you see what other people have done to these cars in the last 50 years, they look like saints.

Im really just trying to show a different perspective because Classiche has a place in the Ferrari community and they are here to stay. They have certified almost 20 cars for our customers through our shop and other than needing to replace the "cherry bomb" mufflers with correct type or little doo-dads, they were quite reasonable. I gave them an old car last summer, they had it for 3-4 weeks, gave me a list of things to replace and once I finish the exhaust, they will get the red book finished up. Now, it takes forever to get the actual Red Book but i found it all to be relatively reasonable.

 

Thanks, interesting inputs and aspects also from peterp!

For parts/replacement parts in general, reflecting best originality/authenticity, I personally feel these preferences:

1. Car original period part (as delivered with the new car, ‘matching numbers’)
2. New old stock (correct type; new and never used original period part, ‘NOS’)
3. Type and period original part (correct type and original period part but from another car, 'non matching numbers')
4. Type correct original replacement part (new, in house reproduction from the original car maker)
5. Type correct, authorised replacement part (new, outsourced reproduction, sanctioned from the original car maker)
6. Type correct replacement part (new reproduction, not from the original car maker)
7. Non type correct original period part (original part but different type from the same period)

Just an attempt … tricky task … especially cip. 4-6, where probably an individual check for correctness makes sense from case to case.

 

Agreed, but they had built them in period and not decades later.

 

Not original....for me it s a reproduction.
It make a non sence if Ferrari use the same codification. The engine code MUST be different than original one. It s the only way.

 

"Many of the aforementioned people got their information from the Ferrari Factory!"

So. How does that now make your incorrect original statement of "No one else has that stuff." true?

"Based on what some people are writing on this thread, they would rather have cars with body work pushed into the tires, grilles hanging out, broken wheels, windshields..."

I have looked hard and I am having difficulty finding any posts containing such statements. Could you please enlighten me with some actual quotes from the posters you are referring to?

By the way just for clarification purposes by lumpy and bumpy I did not mean any damage that poses a safety issue either mechanical and/or a major cosmetic issue that cannot be rectified or repaired properly by sympathetically applied preservation/restoration methods done by independent restoration shops, other qualified entity's or horror of horrors a hobbyist actual owner with the talent, time and resources to do so. I was merely referring to true patina witness marking wear and tear encountered during the course of use such as original chipped/cracked time faded paint, distressed interior materials, etc. be it a race car or road car and apologize for any confusion.

"No one can or will restore a GTE or other 2+2 when they are too far gone."

Again you are attempting to speak for everyone here or anywhere for that matter with what is your own personal opinion and evaluation of what is too far gone. There have been more than enough examples posted throughout the history of this forum of 2+2s and other models resurrected from the dead to invalidate your own personal speak for everyone statement/opinion.


"Whether you like it or not, Classiche, Mercedes Benz Classic, Jaguar Heritage and from what I understand Porsche are all trying to find profit in dealing with their classic cars."


Again to clarify. I don't care one way or the other that any of the manufactures woke up and realized that what was originally primarily the activity of passionate car enthusiasts who cared about preserving history, enjoying the use of those cars and sharing it with other like minded individuals which had now morphed into the multi area industry it is today which supports all manner of profit producing commercial enterprises (restoration shops such as yourself, their suppliers, reproduction parts manufactures, auction companies, vintage race promoters, etc.) and have decided that they too want a slice of the now big $ pie. What I care about is if they get it really right, disclose the truth about how they do it, do not consider themselves the only ones that can do it and that they are the only authority on how to do it or what it takes to do it as well as not rewrite or destroy period chain history along the way etc.

"The owner of the car tried to buy the original matching engine but the seller wanted an absurd amount of money for it." He took the car to car to Classiche and they made a correct type/spec engine and stamped a horse on the pad. Is this good or bad?


Subjective question requires a subjective reply. Hmm let's see in today's market a correct good 275 GTB depending on the version(since you did not qualify what chassis# or version it was or state what your opinion of absurd amount was) value can be from the 2+ Mill area to 26+ or more Mill (Think Preston Henn) The value added by having a non OEM manufactured baptized COPY versus no engine would be significant higher. Good.

The value added by having a correct period engine form another car of the same model and specification versus a non OEM manufactured baptized COPY. Even higher. Good

The value added by having the correct numbers matching original engine the car was born with. Massively higher than the first example. Gooder still

The final result of what actually took place. The car now has the least valuable correct tipo engine in it and will likely bring much less at resale than the difference in what the original engine may have cost at the time it was initially purchasable. Bad.

All of this depends on your point of view, the price of the engine at the time it was purchasable, the related cost of the COPY engine with its installation fees and present market conditions.

Current situation: Car is running with copy engine and potentially the original is still out there and available. Bad and Good. Good if it is and if it is I doubt it will be as cheap as it may have been. Bad

 

Most probably #08483. Shown here at Monza, 29 October 2006.
This 275 GTB was certified with a brand new block on the 27th September 2006.
As of July 2010 the owner of the original engine 08483 was in New Jersey and wanted to have the original engine re-united with the car...............

Marcel Massini
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Marcel, many thanks again for your ongoing unselfish contribution of valuable information. To bad the owner could not or did not see the obvious efficaciousness of making it happen at the time. Perhaps he was without the means to do so and thus chose the ez way out. I doubt the cost difference would have been that great but who knows? IMHO in hindsight at today's market values and the prevailing collector attitudes not mention the preservationist historical side issue it would have resulted in a far better final resolution to get the original period matching numbers engine back in the car than where it rests today. But WTH do I know, my Crystal Ball went opaque a long time ago.

 

Interesting comments by all posters but can I point out that the difference between the Ferrari classiche program (and maybe Aston Martin's program) and the others is apparently like night and day. For Classiche is a major source of Ferrari's revenue the others are simply the manufacturers way of supporting fans of their classic vehicles. Porsche and Mercedes are well known for supporting owners of their classic's and probably get brand value out of their old cars being shown and used with restoration and sale of old parts being a minute % of turnover. Classiche is in the business of selling old parts with a massive profit margin to people that are money rich and time poor.

Many restorers can do the work to a standard equally or even higher such as Bob Smith, Paul Russell, DK Engineering, Talacrest, GTO restorations or Ottis/ Perfect Restorations can all restore your prized possession if you have enough cash. If you got a Marcel Massini report and then got one of the previous to restore to the specification that you want (original or to some point in time such as last raced or when it won Sebring etc.) it will be perfect and probably much cheaper than the Classiche job. I don't wonder whether a lot of what Classiche is about is just a giant pi$$ing match for people to say look at how much money I have got, I could afford to spend $2 million at Classiche getting my car restored.

 

I've always wished Pininfarina, Scaglietti and other coach builders had "Classiche" programs, they were the ones who did the more subjective work on Ferraris like trims, lights, gauges... Many Ferrari's are extremely consistent under the skin.
Babci, this conversation is sport, I hope you don't feel that I am disagreeing with you specifically its just that this thread seems to have a tone that is against non-original parts. Ultimately, i think its better to have a SWB replica than a GTE that is rotting in a salvage yard. I think a Monza with a newly manufactured, accurate 4 cylinder engine is better than a Chevy V8 installation. Also, a TR with a new and properly shaped body is better than an incorrect body placed on the chassis.
It is a shame that for the last 50 years, many independents who have been committed to keeping Ferraris going due to their passion and to make decent profit all to be pushed aside by Ferrari. Hall and Hall for the 4 cylinder engine castings among other intricate parts, GTO engineering, Roelofs, Algretti, Brandoli, However, most of these dedicated guys are hired by Ferrari Classiche and other top resto shops to keep these cars running and as accurate as they can be to the original design. Pretty damn cool.


Regarding original coachwork, very few cars have existed for many years with just lumps and bumps. Even if for some reason a car wasn't in a collision, many aluminum bodied cars are so thin and fatigued from numerous paint jobs that they are beyond saving. Funny story The car coming up for sale in Monterrey, 340 America # 0030 was methodically distressed with 500 grit sand paper and a rubber mallet. When my father owned that car, it had a magnificent paint job and now it looks "original"!

 

"Babci, this conversation is sport, I hope you don't feel that I am disagreeing with you specifically its just that this thread seems to have a tone that is against non-original parts."

No I do not feel you are disagreeing with me specifically so no offense taken nor do I mean any disrespect in my reply's to you. Everyone is entitled their own opinion and is free to express it here. I do not agree that the tone of the thread is against non original parts it just depends on your or anyone else's opinion of what the definition of original parts means/is and what the representation disclosure of the provider of those parts may be. IMO OEM provided replacements are the closest to NOS or Used Old Stock (with NOS or UOS being first and second choices) which if not available simply preserves the highest originality content.

"many aluminum bodied cars are so thin and fatigued from numerous paint jobs that they are beyond saving"

I beg to differ with you. In the case of old over work hardened, stretched thin and fatigued aluminum it depends on your clients resources, your technical talent ability and the willingness to go the distance. With modern technological technique a lot of what would have been considered un-salvageable scrap just 8 years ago can now be saved. I have personally observed such projects that utilized plasma metal spraying and annealing in addition to other high tech processes that accomplished magnificent end results. It was not easy, cheap nor quick but it worked and saved the majority of original coachwork content.

 

Agree with you about Aston Martin joining the upper echelon of charging its customers a premium to restore/maintain their classics.

I recently spoke with a customer who had a DB4 restored by A.M Works at the old factory and the bill made my eyes water, but he was VERY happy with the finished result and he spoke very highly of them.

 

PF still does very good restorations.

A lot of us have records and documents that Ferrari doesn't.

The two 0818's and the LM that Classiche turned into one speak for themselves.

Ask some of the guys you mentioned what they really think about Classiche.

If Classiche has called you a: "****ing Sicilian" they'll probably let you know.