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Who is your least....

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by tifosi12, Jan 8, 2004.

  1. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 3, 2002
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    Andreas
    ...favourite F1 driver?

    And don't mention Eddie or we'll have a spirited discussion.
    :)

    Here my pick:

    Michael Andretti

    Not that I don't like him (I actually do like the Andrettis), but rarely have I ever seen a driver so out of his league as his season in F1. It was stupendous and partly his fault for not being willing to live in Europe and test drive the Mc Laren (aside from the fact of coming to all GPs with a huge jet lag).

    PS: Some nagging voice in my back head tells me, that a particular Canadian will show up on this list...
     
  2. yesod

    yesod Formula Junior

    Nov 2, 2003
    344
    Lakeland,fl
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    Keith
    You are right, definetley JV with Montoya a close second.
     
  3. bobafett

    bobafett F1 Veteran

    Sep 28, 2002
    9,193
    JV no question.

    --Dan
     
  4. 96impalaSS

    96impalaSS F1 Rookie

    Dec 8, 2003
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    Chris
    i hate Kimi
     
  5. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
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    Pete
    Yes Michael Andretti embarrassed his father big time, but I hate Paul Tracey as a driver more ... total idiot. In the end Michael has none of his fathers talent and only races cars and gets seats because of his last name ... such a shame.

    Anyway back to F1:
    1. JV
    2. The rest of the F1 field except: MS, Kimi, Alonso, Weber. They are all field fillers with not enough hunger and shear passion and it upsets me immensely that these so called race drivers are taking seats, when there is real talent out there struggling for money and the next drive.
    3. Even RB pees me off as he needs way to much ego massaging to get on with the job. If he was a real racing driver he would not need that and he would take the fight to MS ... instead of sulking in the corner. If he took the fight to MS consistently (not when his mood feels like it) then his team would get right behind him and MS would not get all the support.
    4. Actually I was disappointed with Kimi at Japan as he did not even take it to RB just cruised around (why do we know he was not trying hard enough ... Coulthard finished right behind him!). I guess he is young, but if he wants to be champion he needs to rise to the ocassion not sit back and see what happens (like I have to say this, Eddie Irvine did with his racing ...)

    As I have said before, the biggest problem in F1 currently is the lack of racing drivers ... hence no racing.

    Pete
     
  6. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

    May 31, 2003
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    Rob Guess
    JV and Kimi for myself
     
  7. Hubert

    Hubert F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2002
    2,642
    The Left Coast
    JV. the guy couldn't pull the pacifier out of his mouth long enough to drive thr car.
     
  8. hps

    hps Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    338
    Canada
    Mark Webber for me......I just can't see what the big deal is......I'm sure he is a nice kid, and I'm well aware that I couldn't even get an F1 car out of the pits, but I just don't see it. The British press is all over this guy, like he's the second coming. When you compare him in the Jaguar to anyone else they have had, then yeah, he stands out....but for me.....he is mid pack at best....
     
  9. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
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    Pete
    Very strange comment ... ???, ie. what is the big deal, and then you explain what the big deal actually is. There is no other way to compare a driver, other than against his team mate, thus standing out against every team mate that they throw at him is a huge deal. This is what MS did!. Put Schumacher in a Minardi (or possibly a Jaguar) and he would be mid-pack at very best ... but his team mate would be on the tail of this grid.

    Thus you are really stating that Weber and Jaguar combination are mid-pack at best ... not Weber.

    Lets think about the other drivers worth considering:
    MS - Destroyed RB again in consistency, ie. wanting to race every race not just the ones he wants to.
    Kimi - yep makes Coulthard look his usual below average. Thus not really sure about Kimi until he has a real team mate.
    Alonso - who is his team mate?, obviously destroyed him.

    Put Weber in a Ferrari and he would piss all over RB, because he would give it 110% everytime and not sit there and moan that needs some extra motivation.

    I'm not a huge Weber fan (I'm not actually Australian, I just live here) but some of his qualifying laps have shown that at last a real racer has made the grids ... would love to see him in a Williams so we would have somebody to race MS ... everybody else is too interested in the money and screwing the grid girls. Not a racer amongst them :(

    Pete
     
  10. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I think I started a good one. Lots to debate.

    Pete, is that true? Did Michael actually embarras Mario? I would think so, but did Mario actually ever say something to that extent?

    Strong statement of yours about the rest of the field, and even including RB in that group. But I won't debate it. You have a point there. With the exception of JPM. He needs to learn how to become consistent, but other than that I think he has the speed and talent.

    Kimi did in Japan exactly what he had to. And for a while he looked like he had it in the bag. He couldn't afford to risk too much, the odds were against him.

    As for Eddie, I have to say it one more time: If Ferrari would have known in Nuerburg, that a race car actually has FOUR tires, Eddie would have been WC in 1999. The team lost that one, not Eddie.
     
  11. hps

    hps Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    338
    Canada
    My Point is........when comparing him with the other Jag drivers....obviously he stands out because, let's face it......Jaguar hasn't really had anyone decent have they...and don't give EI as an example, he drove for $$$ and nothing else, but to say this is a huge deal, is over-stating the matter. The way I see it in Webber, they finally got a driver who is decent....I agree he is a decnt driver, but nothing special.....there is NO way he would have the better of Rubens in a Ferrari......anyway, this is nothing but pure speculation right?
    My opinion if Webber is that he is a Coulthard type at best.....will win the odd race, if he has a good car, but he is not the "future champion" , that people say he is.
    I stand by my opinion....he is good, but mid pack at best......I would put Ralf, Kimi, Fernando, Jarno, Michael, David, Juan, Rubens, ahead of Webber.....so let's see, that's 9 drivers, in a fiels of 20......Wow.....mid-grid........hmmmm.....
     
  12. kizdan

    kizdan F1 Veteran

    Dec 31, 2003
    5,281
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    Dan
    I see there's some picking on Canadian drivers?????? 8-D
    (I am Canadian)

    Let's clear a few things up here;
    1) JV is a very talented driver, and I hope he gets to prove it again. I think he can go head to head with anyone in equal cars, and that includes Shumey. Yes, he has a very big mouth, and he should most definitely keep it shut.

    2) It's funny how nobody has mentioned David Coulthard. He seems like he is the nicest guy around, but his driving skill has not impressed me much at all. He is a good supporter for a top driver, and that is all, much like a Rubens, or a Gerhard Berger. I can't believe McLaren has kept him for so long.

    3) I never cared for Damon Hill very much.
     
  13. hps

    hps Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    338
    Canada
    I agree 100 % kizdan.........JV was, and is every bit as fast as Schumacher, but his biggest weakness was his mouth, and that and BAR, is what kept him from winning more championships. Even Michael will admit that in equal circumstances, the driver he fears the most is JV. One of the great wasted talents in F1 i my opinion. As for Couthard, I have huge respect for him as a driver, and even more as a man.....always a class act, and your comparison to Berger and Barrichello is bang on. I would love to see him win a championship, but I fear his oppportunities have passed him. Still, would be great to se, no?

    As for Hill....a great driver, deserved the championship that he won, and did it his way.....still, probably should have wone another championship, like in '95.
    I think Patrick Head would agree.....also, he stayed too long, and it showed.
    Should have stopped 1 year earlier than he did.
    I wouldn't put JV, DC, or DH on my list of least favorite drivers, as I liked them all.

    In fact, I think my lost of least favorite drivers, would be pretty small,and include guys like Mika Salo, Jos Verstappen, ...you know, the driver who talks up a storm, and just can't deliver on track.......

    hps
     
  14. Anthony_Ferrari

    Anthony_Ferrari Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
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    Anthony Currie
    Coulthard must have some very compromising photos of Ron Dennis. That is the only reason I can see for him still being in a top team. He has never driven a car that can't win races, but he has never come close to winning a championship. A bigger waste of a racesuit I can't think of.
     
  15. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Damon was lucky to get that one title. He was a test driver. Fast when in front, but overwhelmed when in the midst of a battle. Yes, should have quit a year earlier and should have kept his mouth shut.

    Mika Salo "won" Hockenheim in 1999. Well, he gave it to Eddie, but clearly was in control. Not a great driver, but definitely not at the bottom of my list.
     
  16. Maximo_Tifoso

    Maximo_Tifoso Karting

    Jan 8, 2004
    218
    Houston TX
    I never liked JV nor was I ever a fan of Damon Hill (nothing compared to his father!!). I don't like JPM's attitude and Kimi has no personality. However, Kimi is a great talent and I'm looking forward to him crushing Montoya in 05'. That is if the rumors don't come true that Kimi will move to Ferrari then!
     
  17. JOEV

    JOEV F1 Rookie

    Aug 6, 2003
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    Joe
    Strange that someone said they hated Kimi - I always assumed that he was almost universally loved (or at least liked).

    JV has a mouth on him for sure, but I would really like to see him in a real car again. Last season was so depressing to watch (even though he still made a ridiculous amount of money) - that has got to mess with your mind, when you know that your car is not going to make it.

    Webber is a great driver, but to me crosses that line from confident (which is great and necessary) to arrogant and cocky. I'm sure it's a common trait of people who perform at a high level, but I saw a couple of interviews last year where I thought, "This guy thinks he is the greatest thing since sliced bread.").

    Joe
     
  18. FLATOUTRACING

    FLATOUTRACING F1 Rookie

    Aug 20, 2001
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    Jon K.
    On Point #3 I agree. DH got to F1 because of his father. He had enough talent to compete in F1 but I don't think he was Championship material. He had a good car and Schumacher didn't.

    Point # 2.....I was about to mention DC. Mika served him his lunch on a regular basis and he has never dominated any teamate he has had. He's had superior equipment for too long and hasn't ever been in the hunt a the end of the season.

    Point # 1 and I am going to try and be sensitive as I am a big GV fan but not a JV fan. JV had talent, maybe world class talent, but he was, is and will never be as fast as Schumacher.

    He barely beat MS in a car that was clearly superior. Much like DH, JV had a car that was the class of the grid and MS had a car that was second rate. The only person MS ever battled in an equal car was Hakkinen in 2000. I would say both cars were equal and the title went to the wire. The 98 McLaren was still ahead of MS's Ferrari so chalk that one up to a superior car and Mika's driving.

    Speed is only one part of being the best. Schumacher took a car, not unlike BAR's first car and had the development skill to help design a winner. JV doesn't have enough feedback talent or motivation to design a Hot Wheels car.

    JV was good in a first class car, anything else and he wasn't on the same page.

    The only thing that I agree with that JV ever said was...."If Jenson outqualifies me I will be out of F1" You got that right JV!!!!


    Last years BAR wasn't a bad car in qualifying but Jenson consistently handed JV his lunch and JV always had some complaint.....

    ....we couldn't find the grip, the tires are not working with the balance of the car, we've missed the setup between practice, so and so dumped dirt in turn whatever, the temperature changed, yada, yada, yada.....

    As for Michael Andretti, no doubt that he wasn't ready for F1 or possibly didn't have the talent to make it big there, though certainly he had more than enough talente to compete with the mid pack drivers.

    Don't forget that in his last race he outqualified Senna and finished 5th after having to pit once more than the front runners.

    However, to say that he only got where he was due to his dad is a flat out stupid statement. It may have opened the door but it didn't keep him in CART for nearly 20 years.

    He is the winningest CART driver and many of those wins came in the late 80's and early 90's when Al Jr., Rick Mears, Rahal, Fittpaldi, and other notables raced.

    His last name didn't get him 42 wins and 32 poles because his last name was Andretti.

    Don't forget there were two other Andretti's Jeff and John (Mario's nephew) and while the got their foot in the door becasue of their name it didn't produce any significant records because they didn't have Michael's talent.

    Did he share his dad's talent? Some of it but he certainly wasn't compared to the greats like his dad, that however doesn't mean his dad had much of anything to do with Michael's carrer success other than to get him into racing.

    Lastly, I don't blame Hocekenheim for losing Eddie the title. Ferrari never wanted him to win it in the first place. I think had Salo not been asked to move over Eddie still wouldn't have won the title. I don't think Luca would allow it and I don't think Michael would have allowed it.

    Remember the big debacle at Malaysia when MS didn't want to race. he built that team with hundreds of hours of sweat and tears and then to have his number 2 driver come in and win the first title in 20 years WAS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN. Todt would have had someone sitting on a hill at Suzuka with a high powered rifle.....

    .....Irvine loses Championship on bad tire the news would read!

    Also at one point early on I didn't like Senna at all. When he went to McLaren this just enforced my dislike for him because I absolutely hated Prost, Ron Dennis and McLaren.

    But after seeing him race I was mesmerized by his talent and soon became a fan.

    I will never forget the opening lap at Donnington and how he utterly destroyed Prost during qualifying at Monoco. The shot of Ron Dennis laughing uncontrollably and the shot of Prost's look of disbelief and shaking his head in disappointment will never be forgotten.

    I hate McLaren and have always been a Ferrari fan first and foremost, and am a huge MS fan but Senna is still a god to me.

    My son's middle name is Ayrton so that should tell how much I admired Senna.

    Regards,

    Jon P. Kofod
    www.flatoutracing.net
     
  19. Corsa

    Corsa Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
    108
    Stockholm
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    Peter
  20. Jameel

    Jameel Formula Junior

    Nov 4, 2003
    401
    Canada
    Eddie Irvine and JV all these two ever do is whine, like little girls, about why they are not doing well in F1. I hate Eddie Irvine the most.

    I'm not a big fan of Webber, I really don't see what the big deal is about this guy. I don't know I just don't see it. Yah he can keep the Jag in mid-field that's great and all, but really any driver Jag gets should be able to keep that car in the mid-field. If they can't then they shouldn't be in F1 (or at least an Jaguar).
     
  21. Apex

    Apex Rookie

    Dec 1, 2003
    44
    Easy choice for the least...

    That honor would go to Eddie 'if I drove as fast as I talk' Irvine...

    Granted the team blew it for him, but made me smile then and now...

    The entire Jag debackle keeping Eddie on for apparent entertainment value while Niki and Eddie plan the come back of the marque.

    LoL
     
  22. Kharma Police

    Kharma Police Rookie

    Dec 4, 2003
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    Steve
    Damon Hill - I disliked him when he drove since the British F1 press treated him like the second coming. He was never that good and only barely won one WC in a vastly superior car. He seems like an OK guy on a personal level.

    Mika Hakinnen - I couldn't stand his one-word smart-ass answers during interviews. He seemed to hold the interviewer and the fans in complete contempt. Again, he barely won his championships with a vastly superior car.

    Aside from his ability there doesn't seem to be much to like about Kimi either.

    Eddie Irvine and JV were alternately "breaths of fresh air" and " big mouth pains in the ass". I'm still undecided.

    I usually end up disliking any Brit in the series since they are always overpaid, overexposed and overrated.

    I usually end up disliking the Japanese drivers since they most often "buy" their seat and seem to have difficulty pulling aside for the rest of the field.
     
  23. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 3, 2002
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    Jon, you need to watch those tapes and DVDs. The story was a bit different:

    In Hockenheim Ferrari asked Salo to move over for Eddie and Salo did (something he regretted later one after not being signed on again as he once said in an interview).

    At the other German GP, oops, European GP at the Nuerburgring the Ferrari team didn't have 4 tires ready for Eddie and he lost the win because of the 20 second delay to find the 4th tire. Those points would have made all the difference for him winning the WC in 99.

    So you can't say that Ferrari totally didn't want him to win the WC. Although for the reasons you state, they were not really motivated either. Todt might have been there with a rifle (like Bernie was in Hockenheim last year...), but Luca would have fired the second shot: Into Todt's head.

    I spoke with Eddie's dad and he wasn't too sad about the loss of the title because he saw that his son would have won. If somebody had informed that their car actually runs on four tires.

    PS: You almost got your wish, Ayrton was slated to take the Ferrari seat in 95.
     
  24. flyingboa

    flyingboa Formula 3

    Nov 27, 2003
    1,551
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    Eugenio
    Every japanese driver imposed by honda in F1: you name it...

    Ciao

    Eugenio
     
  25. FLATOUTRACING

    FLATOUTRACING F1 Rookie

    Aug 20, 2001
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    Jon K.
    Andreas,

    By the way, I have been staying up every night until 3 am watching all the DVD's. Finally finished 89 (two discs) last evening. yes I do remember that Salo was specifically asked to move over. No arguement there, but the tire fiasco leaves me wondering. It was a major screw up and you have to ask how it occured.

    My feeling is simply that many within Ferrari didn't want Eddie to win it. I am not even sure Luca wanted him to win it.

    Don't forget I am a huge EI fan same as you (even have the same Irvine Bieffe helmet) and was sorely disappointed he didn't win it but I think the writting was on the wall when Michael almost refused to come back to finish the last two races.

    Regards,

    Jon
     

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