Why are we so slow? | Page 8 | FerrariChat

Why are we so slow?

Discussion in 'F1' started by 635CSI, Mar 17, 2019.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ

    No game. Ferrari did not get aero/chassis optimal - https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/143861/ferrari-explains-struggles-with-quite-different-tyres

    Ferrari team principal Mattia Binotto said during the Monaco Grand Prix weekend: "The main difference is that last year we had very good warm up with the tyres and we were all focused and concentrating on cooling the tyres as much as we could, to keep them working because the lower the temperature was the better the grip was.

    "The tyres of this season are quite different in this respect. Warm-up is a lot more difficult and in order to achieve what we may call the window, the temperature target of when you have the best grip from the tyres itself, you need to heat up the tyres."

    Warming up the tyres is helped by moving the rubber around, which is easier to do with softer compounds or on circuits that produce higher lateral loads.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    This could explain why Ferrari was so strong in Bahrain and Azerbaijan but has struggled elsewhere.

    However, it shone at Barcelona during pre-season testing then struggled compared to Mercedes in the Spanish Grand Prix in May.

    Binotto said there were other ways to make the tyres work but it would also be linked to the fundamental performance of the car, which Ferrari is re-evaluating.

    "You can achieve [heat in the tyres] through braking temperatures and cooling the rims, but also it is downforce no doubt," said Binotto.

    "The downforce has an absolute value, but it is also how you may balance the downforce at high speed to low speed.

    "It may be as well how you may even target your aero development efficiency versus maximum downforce itself.

    "I think we have a car that is quite efficient, as you can see on the straights, but it doesn't mean we have the car that has the highest downforce in the pitlane.

    "It is right to question ourselves if we should look for different overall targets of how to achieve the final performance."
     
    daytona355 likes this.
  2. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 31, 2016
    20,834
    Corpus Christi, Tx.
    Full Name:
    Joe R Gonzales
  3. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 31, 2016
    20,834
    Corpus Christi, Tx.
    Full Name:
    Joe R Gonzales
    daytona355 likes this.
  4. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 31, 2016
    20,834
    Corpus Christi, Tx.
    Full Name:
    Joe R Gonzales
    before FrenhGP

    [it.motorsport]

    The SF90 will have a totally rebalanced aerodynamic configuration. It’s the result of a long verification work which has revealed some discrepancies between what had emerged in the simulator/development in the wind tunnel and the feedback on track.

    Why Ferrari feels a bit optimistic? Apparently the first indications coming from the simulator confirmed the correct direction of the work done. We will see if the respond on track will be the same. Ferrari hopes to be closer to Mercedes in Paul Ricard.

    "We will also see a new front wing on the Ferrari SF90, capable of generating more downforce without betraying the outwash philosphy."
     
    daytona355, kandi, stavura and 2 others like this.
  5. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
    41,423
    ESP
    Full Name:
    Bas
    He can defend his ''strategists'' (I apply the word loosely) all he likes...indeed everyone is smarter after, but how is it possible people can call better strategies when Ferrari is still napping!?
     
  6. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
    41,423
    ESP
    Full Name:
    Bas
    Fingers crossed. Balanced aero can be a good benefit to the heating of the tyres!
     
    daytona355 and stavura like this.
  7. TonyL

    TonyL F1 Rookie

    Sep 27, 2007
    3,838
    Norfolk - UK
    Full Name:
    Tony
    I hope so but I seem to recall they used this excuse some years ago that the wind tunnel was configured incorrectly, seems like the wind tunnel guy is still there!!!
     
    daytona355, kandi, DF1 and 1 other person like this.
  8. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
    41,423
    ESP
    Full Name:
    Bas
    Same immunity as the strategy boys?
     
    daytona355 and TonyL like this.
  9. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 31, 2016
    20,834
    Corpus Christi, Tx.
    Full Name:
    Joe R Gonzales
    published June 5th

    Gazzetta reports the following development steps of Ferrari for the Europe races

    France = new front wing (new profile, new flaps but still the concept of outwash)............ [check]
    Austria = new floor
    Great Britian = new diffuser
    Germany = new flow diverters in front of the sides
     
    stavura and daytona355 like this.
  10. furoni

    furoni F1 World Champ

    Jun 6, 2011
    13,628
    Vila Verde
    Full Name:
    Pedro Braga Soares
    On the other hand, Ferrari went shoping some new boys..

    Stephen Boyd, Maurizio Tomasselli, Hermann Wolche, François Dejoyeaux y Nigel Rupert-Nuttling these are the new 5 members to the team, the first one, Boyd come to the strategy team (hope he's any good!!)
    This is how the temm looks like:


    team director Mattia Binotto
    sporting director Laurent Mekies
    Strategy boss (FIRE HIM) Iñaki Rueda
    Track engineering boss Matteo Togninalli
    engine operations boss Luigi Fraboni
    race engineer from Vettel Riccardo Adami
    race engineer from Leclerc Xavier Marcos
    performence engineer from Vettel Steven Petrik
    performance engineer from Leclerc Bryan Bozzi
    Chief engineer and mentor to Leclerc Jock Clear
    Track operations boss Claudio Albertini
    Chief mechanic Christian Corradini
    nº1 mechanic from Vettel Filippo Milani
    nº 1 mechanic from Leclerc Alessandro Fusaro

     
  11. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 31, 2016
    20,834
    Corpus Christi, Tx.
    Full Name:
    Joe R Gonzales
    #186 jgonzalesm6, Jun 18, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
    yep, Binotto making big changes.

    • Francois Dejoyeaux (prev. worked at Renault in the engine centre in Viry-Charillon) will work at the engine department

    • Nigel Rupert-Nuttling from Red Bull will join (correlation between the CFD-simulations and the track)



    Ferrari makes changes to its structure

    Despite lagging behind Mercedes in the Constructors’ Championship, Ferrari’s team principal Mattia Binotto is working hard to ensure that his team has the perfect structure to get the best out of its resources in the near future.

    Just after seven rounds into the 2019 FIA Formula One Championship, Ferrari is trailing Mercedes by 123 points while Sebastian Vettel is 62 points behind the championship leader Lewis Hamilton. Due to this deficit in the Standings and Mercedes’ advantage in terms of tyre management, it is obvious at the relatively early stage of the season that Mercedes looks set to steal its sixth constructors’ title in a row while Hamilton is on course to clinch his sixth world championship title.

    Instead of standing still, Ferrari are adamant to understand the issues which hamper them to unlock the potential of their 2019 car, the SF90 as they want to find out what areas they have to work on intensively when they shift their focus on next year’s challenger. On the other hand, Mattia Binotto wants to strengthen the team structure. The Swiss-Italian took over the position of team principal from Maurizio Arrivabene on the 7th January. He was noted as team principal and technical director since the start of the season, but prior to the Canadian Grand Prix, his role was redefined, emphasising that he fulfils the position of team principal.

    The 50-year-old said that Ferrari no longer has a classical horizontal structure. Instead of that, several people responsible for different key areas report to him and he has to filter the information to take the right changes and decisions.

    Several other key positions were redefined to clarify the responsibilities within the team. Lewis Hamilton’s former race engineer Jock Clear was the team’s leading engineer, but his main responsibility for 2019 is his role as driver coach for Charles Leclerc. Toro Rosso’s former technican and FIA’s deputy race director Laurent Mekies who attended a Formula 1 race with Ferrari for the first time last November is responsible for the team’s sporting matters at the race tracks.

    Position........................................................ Person................................................... Position............................................. .......Person
    Team principal...............................................Mattia Binotto .........................................Driver coach, leading engineer.................. Jock Clear
    Sporting directo.............................................Laurent Mekies....................................... Charles Leclerc's race engineer......... ........Xavier Marcos Padros
    Head of strategy........................................... Inaki Rueda.............................................Charles Leclerc's performance engineer.....Bryan Bozzi
    Head of track engineering............................ Matteo Togninalli..................................... Head of track operations............................ Claudio Albertini
    Head of engine operations............................ Luigi Fraboni............................................Chief mechanic.......................................... Christian Corradini
    Sebastian Vettel's race engineer................... Riccardo Adami.......................................Sebastian Vettel #1 mechanic................... Filippo Milani
    Sebastian Vettel's performance engineer...... Steven Petrik........................................ Charles Leclerc #1 mechanic...................... Alessandro Fusaro


    Besides the adjustments to its structure, Ferrari made a series of recruitments in recent weeks to strengthen its workforce. Stephen Boyd was signed as a strategy expert. He recently worked for Liberty Media, but he was responsible for different tasks in the strategy department at different teams prior to his role at Formula One’s Commercial Rights’ Holder.

    Maurizio Tomasselli will also join Ferrari in the coming weeks. The Italian was the coordinator of chassis development at Toro Rosso and his role at Ferrari will be similar to that. As an aerodynamicist, Hermann Wolche will get a role inside the windtunnel activities of Ferrari. The German worked at Mercedes recently. The engine department of the Italian team will be strengthened by the arrival of Francois Dejoyeaux who lately worked at Renault’s engine centre in Viry-Charillon. Nigel Rupert-Nuttling will arrive from Red Bull. The Briton will work on the correlation between the CFD-simulations and the track.

    Summer dedicated to developments
    Despite to the lack of pace during recent races, Ferrari has not been desperate to find remedy to its issues with the cornering speed of its SF90. It brought some aerodynamic updates to its car in Azerbaijan, followed by some minor other parts and a new internal combustion engine in Spain.

    In the following two races, Monaco and Canada, Ferrari appeared with almost an identical car. However, it fitted a new turbocharger and a new MGU-H to both its cars to complete its first engine upgrade which it started with the new ICE in Spain.

    However, the Italian team has not stood still in recent weeks and was working a series of developments which should enable them to get the most out of Pirelli’s 2019 tyres. Binotto said that there will be “a series of developments in the next races to improve the use of the tyres. We have ideas, and we need to hurry, but it will take a few weeks.”

    According to the Italian La Gazzetta dello Sport, the team will introduce a raft of important developments in the next four grands prix. The impressive frenzy of updates will involve a new front wing in France, a new floor in Austria, a new diffuser at Silverstone, and new barge boards at Hockenheim.

    https://www.f1technical.net/news/22075
     
    Finlander, stavura and daytona355 like this.
  12. daytona355

    daytona355 F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Mar 25, 2009
    12,655
    London
    Full Name:
    Sid Korshak
    Yet another diatribe about the state of the tyres, and the damage done to our racers by their inconsistencies and ridiculous range of use. Anyone need any more proof that the teams cannot make these tyres work, except Mercedes, for whom the thin walled tyres have ALWAYS worked perfectly?
     
  13. srephwed

    srephwed F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 29, 2012
    6,470
    street,md
    Full Name:
    fred brown
    Ferrari isn't slow. Mercedes is just really fast.
     
  14. daytona355

    daytona355 F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Mar 25, 2009
    12,655
    London
    Full Name:
    Sid Korshak
    And have the stewards in their pockets to help them cheat when they **** up
     
  15. 635CSI

    635CSI F1 Rookie

    Jun 26, 2013
    3,001
    London UK
    Full Name:
    Graham
    Ok, so maybe a large part of the the answer to this is “Pirelli”.

    Here’s another thought, Charles Ferrari was indeed slow compared to Max’s RB in the final stages of the race at the weekend.
    Not uncommon for a race leader on older tyres to get caught up by somebody on fresher rubber, but why make it so easy to pass?

    How about disallowing DRS for the battle for the lead. I’m thinking it too easy for the second placed fast runner to take the lead and the win. DRS exacerbates the tire wear differences and perhaps makes the battle for the lead too easy? Should the pass for the win be harder to achieve than the passes on midfield runners while charging up the field ?
     
    daytona355 and Bas like this.
  16. 375+

    375+ F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 28, 2005
    12,036
    DRS is just another method used to spice-up the show. I would either enable it for all cars, all the time or eliminate it.
     
    bmwracer, daytona355 and DF1 like this.
  17. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2017
    4,870
    France
    And then we come back to strategy - the second pit stop could have been the right plan instead of a desperate attempt to mitigate the failed stop of Vettel (tyres not ready? what a total mess)
    Vettel was close to catch on Bottas and finished 4th after starting 9th; maybe with a two stop strategy Leclerc would have saved his first place (I'm convinced that Verstappen's move was illegal and he should have been penalized for ruling consistency, but it's also clear to me that he was faster at the end and could most probably have passed Leclerc in a regular way with a little patience).
     
    daytona355 likes this.
  18. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
    41,423
    ESP
    Full Name:
    Bas
    The aero needs to be fixed before DRS can really be removed. Sadly.

    I hate DRS. But removing it just for the lead makes no sense.

    I would love to see a race or 2 on the 2018 tyres right now. If it's anything like the race we had yesterday....imagine what a season we could've been seeing now? I think mostly a Ferrari/Mercedes show. A few more podiums for red bull certainly but here was their first win still I think.
     
    daytona355 likes this.
  19. crinoid

    crinoid F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 2, 2005
    9,472
    Full Name:
    LaCrinoid
    Rosberg notes that Ferrari used bad tire strategy. The other teams started on mediums and ended on softs. Ferrari did the opposite and that’s why LeClerc couldn’t keep up with Max at the end. More dumb decisions from the Scuderia.
     
    375+ likes this.
  20. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 16, 2012
    21,559
    In the past
    Full Name:
    Jim
    Charles and Max (and Bottas and Hamilton) were all on C2 (hard) at the end (only 1 pit stop each). Max's tires were 9 laps newer than Charles, as Max started on C2 (med) and Charles on C4 (soft). Charles was definitely struggling on the tires at the end, but I think it had more to do with the car versus strictly # of laps. If it was only # of laps Max should have had nothing left after that charge from behind.

    But yes, the decision by Ferrari to run C4 (soft) in Q2 was a mistake that could have made the difference.
     
  21. 375+

    375+ F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 28, 2005
    12,036
    And obvious to all--what the hell were they thinking?
     
    Finlander likes this.
  22. MalcQV

    MalcQV F1 Rookie

    Oct 11, 2004
    3,292
    Manchester, UK
    Full Name:
    Malc Holden
    Hindsight? I'm not sure they made the wrong choice. It gave them an edge at the start...
    https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.what-the-teams-said-qualifying-in-austria-2019.2Y77pCeJX7vbN21PEFqvSy.html

     
  23. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ

    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/144728/ferrari-now-has-f1-development-clarity--vettel

    Ferrari now has "clarity" regarding the development of its Formula 1 car after some "confusion" with upgraded aerodynamic parts that have not performed as expected.

    The Italian team has been shifting its aero focus after a poor start to the season compared to dominant championship leader Mercedes, and introduced several revisions at the French Grand Prix that were billed as important for its development direction.

    However, the new floor was removed after Friday practice and Ferrari admitted that it had not produced the results expected.

    Ferrari conducted further analysis in Austria and ahead of this weekend's British Grand Prix, its lead driver Sebastian Vettel believes the team has cleared the situation up.

    "I think we learned a lot after the confusion, or some bits that maybe didn't turn out to work the way we wanted to during the French Grand Prix," said Vettel.

    "Austria brought some clarity and I think we have a clear picture of what was wrong in terms of tuning and what needs to be changed.

    "Obviously the next couple of weeks will tell where we go. Unfortunately I think it's pretty normal that all the bits you bring don't always bring you what you expect.

    "Sometimes the parts overdeliver which is great and sometimes they underdeliver.

    "We just need to make sure we know a direction to go in and we keep going that way."

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Vettel's title hopes, and Ferrari's chances of finally beating Mercedes to a title, are all but over following a difficult start to the season and the dominance of the team's chief rival.

    Ferrari is 135 points behind in the constructors' championship, having outscored Mercedes for the first time this season in Austria (30-25).

    Meanwhile, Vettel has fallen to fourth in the drivers' standings and trails championship leader Lewis Hamilton by 66 points.

    Returning to the scene of his 2018 victory at Silverstone, Vettel said: "So far this year's been quite up and down for us so let's see where we are tomorrow, how the car feels.

    "I'm quite optimistic. The last couple of weeks have been better for us and hopefully we can continue in that trend."

    Mercedes had a cooling weakness exposed in Austria but Vettel said Ferrari was not getting carried away that there was an Achilles Heel to exploit.

    "It shows it's normal for everyone to have certain highs and lows," said Vettel.

    "The better your package the more you find yourself on the highs rather than the lows.

    "I think there's always hope. Even the races the result was a given, I think we find ourselves as a team trying to make a difference.

    "How many times we succeeded in the last five years I don't know.

    "That's definitely the objective we have, no matter the forecast."
     
  24. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

    Feb 21, 2015
    7,743
    Tropical
    Next up Rueda ,the 'strategy head'.?:rolleyes:
     

Share This Page