Why is 56,600 miles considered high mileage

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by mondialrush, Jul 6, 2005.

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  1. mondialrush

    mondialrush Rookie

    Nov 2, 2004
    20
    I have been trying to sell my 1986 mondial cabriolet for a while now....It has 56,600 miles, just had an engine out major service one year ago (1,000 miles ago) and looks and runs great....

    But, when I have people calling me to get more information about the car, the second I tell them the mileage, its always, "oh, that's so many miles, you're never going to sell it with that kind of mileage."

    I understand the nature of Ferrari's and that 56,600 miles is a lot compared to mondials and other similar models that have 30,000 and less.....But, from everything I have read, the 328 engine is pretty bulletproof and should go 100,000 miles before a engine rebuild becomes necessary.

    Its funny, I had a 1991 Alfa Romeo 164S sedan with 66,000 miles and when I sold it, it was considered to have "low" mileage. I realize the Alfa is more of an everyday and the ferrari was not intended generally for everyday usage....

    I just wondered if anyone wanted to share their thoughts about Ferrari's, mileage and resale. thanks....
     
  2. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    May 29, 2001
    15,492
    Seattle, WA USA
    Full Name:
    Hugh G. Rection
    It is what it is....there are plenty of low mileage "garage queens" out there.....and lot's of misrepresented "low mileage" Ferraris as well. Deal with it by representing the car as factually and honestly as you can.

    BTW, I wouldn't say your car had an "engine out" major service unless, indeed, for some reason they actually had to remove the engine. It doesn't normally come out for the major service.

    Good luck, be patient, and the right, appreciative buyer will come along.
     
  3. Glassman

    Glassman F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 23, 2002
    11,435

    It's kinda funny isn't it. 56,000 miles is high milege, but under 30,000 is a wretched Garage Queen that no one wants either.
     
  4. Rival

    Rival Formula Junior

    May 12, 2005
    338
    Misipi
    The problem is that so many people have garage queens! You might encourage your interested parties to spend a week or so reading the threads on this board, and they'll quickly discover that they're more likely to have a "pleasant ownership experience" with a car that's been driven over a car that has sat (literally) rotting.

    As far as your assumption about the expected mileage before a rebuild, it appears that there are many on this board that would disagree with that notion. If the engines are maintained properly, there is really no reason a 328 should need to be rebuilt at 100K.

    In a nutshell, I believe most on this site would encourage EVERYONE to drive these cars and enjoy them! To do otherwise is (a) to deprive yourself of a really enjoyable experience and (b) to cause noticeably greater deterioration to the car than if it were driven as expected............................
     
  5. Perfusion

    Perfusion F1 Rookie

    Oct 16, 2004
    4,094
    Marietta, GA
    Full Name:
    Aaron
    That's okay... You'll sell it - I'm sure of it. I recently read an add for a 308 (at an authorized FNA dealer, IIRC) that was something to the effect of,

    "11,xxx miles. Interior and exterior and in like-new condition. Major service performed 3,000mi. ago in 1985."

    If you are reading too fast, you won't catch that last "important" part. I saw that and was like, "WHAT!?!"
     
  6. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Jan 26, 2005
    20,675
    Pepper Pike
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    Jon
    I agree with this.

    Ferrari's are odd cars, statistically, because they tend to be weekend drivers or, as Dave said, they've had their mileage history "enhanced." Until you get back to the vintage cars, 50,000 miles is pretty substantial compared to what's showing on everyone else's odometer.

    A 60K-mile Porsche from 198x will sell immediately, because it's a tough German car with tons of dealerships all over, but Ferrari's have a sort of maintenance stigma that people interpret to mean that they need rebuilds well before 100K miles, and everyone thinks oil changes are $1000, so a rebuild must be a second-mortgage event.

    The other thing is that anytime you buy a higher mileage car - even if it is an excellent, tight one - you have to deal with the stigma again if/when you sell. And - as a buyer - it's going to cost me the same $$$ to do a major on a 15K-mile car as it would on yours. So unfortunately, yes, I would negotiate hard as a buyer because I know you won't have as many people interested in your (probably excellent and honest) Mondial.

    < /economics lesson >
     
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  8. scycle2020

    scycle2020 F1 Rookie

    Jan 26, 2004
    3,450
    potomac
    i agree with the above posts...a porsche with 50-60k miles is now even questioned, a ferrari is hard to sell...i remember looking at 355 spiders 2 years ago and 30 miles being high mileage...is really ridiculous, but part of it ferraris image as a flimmsy car with very high repair costs, some of the image being justified based on horror stories by some owners...
     
  9. Dane

    Dane Formula 3

    Apr 25, 2002
    1,194
    AMERICA
    Full Name:
    Dane V.
    56.6K is just getting warmed up! Knowledgable buyers will look for maintenance history. Disregard those that don't as they wouldn't make good owners to start. JMO. Dane
     
  10. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Two Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    May 4, 2001
    25,671
    Birmingham, AL
    Full Name:
    Tommy
    First of all (and this is my 11 millionth time to say this here) NEVER believe the mileage on one of these cars. The sending units will either crap out or be unplugged at least once one all the cars out there. If you think yours hasn't, either your mistaken or it just hasn't YET. It is as inevitable as death and taxes so count on it. I know of a dozen or so personally that have been unplugged, I know of twice as many that have been replaced and even a few of those more than once. Do a search here on sending units and see just how many on this site have stopped working. I have seen 30K cars for sale in 1985 that still have 30K on them now - after mult. owners. One in particular comes to mind; I actually have photos of an 80 308 I took in FL in 1983. I just happened to run across the same car (I photographed the VIN back then so I knew it was the same car) in 1997 with, let's just say "creative mileage" after moving thru at least 3 owners during that 14 year span. My photos prove it. My own sending unit has been replaced twice, once by me and one time earlier according to the records I have (I can care less who knows this because I'm never selling her).
    Now having said that I will allow some "trust" with higher milage cars. Still not accurate, but close and good enough for gov work if you know what I mean. I would like to go on public record as saying that 56K is IDEAL - FOR A FERRARI from the mid 80's. 60-70K is really even better. You know the car has been driven at least for one of these. Yes it has spent a great deal of time sitting but it has been used and that is the important point. Anyone that tells you that it can't be sold with 56K is an idiot and knows nothing about this community that we and our cars are part of.
    If taken care of these cars are damnear bullet-proof. My 308 had 57K showing when I bought it in 1997. It now shows 94K but it really is more like 96K. I cannot begin to tell you the abuse I put this thing thru during these 8 years (LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of HARD track days). I maintain it by the book and a little more. My fluids are changed before AND after each track event. All my services are completed on schedule and I don't floor it when it's cold. Low rpm shifts on startup, etc., etc.

    whew.

    Anyway 56K is just fine...
     
  11. 911Fan

    911Fan Formula 3

    Apr 15, 2004
    1,291
    Southern California
    This is one of the perplexing aspects of the Ferrari world. Your regularly driven, properly maintained, 56K mile beauty is going to be a lot more reliable and much less of a headache than the 7500 mile garage queen but guess which car the typical Ferrari shopper wants to buy...

    The trouble is that with so many garage queens available, buyers (especially non-car-guy buyers who don't know any better) can't really be blamed for being seduced into buying what appears to be a virtually new used Ferrari.

    Good luck with the sale.

    The trouble with garage queens is that nobody really gets to enjoy them.
     
  12. judge4re

    judge4re F1 World Champ

    Apr 26, 2003
    13,234
    Never home
    Full Name:
    Dr. Dumb Ass
    Is it red/tan?

    Please don't tell my wife I asked...
     
  13. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Jan 26, 2005
    20,675
    Pepper Pike
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    Jon
    Hang on a sec: 3,083 posts, and by my count only 2,922 of them have been about the odometer/accuracy issue. ;) Unless you or Rob disconnected the post counter deliberately...
     
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  15. patpong

    patpong Formula 3

    Jul 6, 2004
    2,170
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Full Name:
    Patpong Thanavisuth
    IMO, the supercar like a Ferrari is built for the fun of driving. Owner naturally pushes their car for enjoyment. When road is clear, you hit red line every gears. We all do. We don't ever hit red line on our daily driver. I am considering a 26,000 miles Testarossa at the moment. The car got Tubi exhaust, stainless steel host, other modify. All these evidents are clear that the driver really push his car to the limit. So, it was a 26,000 mile of really hard driving. And, That means the car was heavily beat up.... some thing to avoid.
     
  16. burriana

    burriana Formula 3

    Jul 8, 2004
    1,675
    North Yorkshire UK
    Full Name:
    AL
    Not necessarily so.

    Do not convince yourself out of a good car Patpong purely because it has had a few mods. Out of that 26000 miles, only a handful of those miles might be hard... the ones when it was between 6800 and 7200 revs! All the rest is just a big 12 cylinder stretching its legs.

    If it has other signs, such as race harness, tow hook, engine cut off switches, then fair enough.
     
  17. steve f

    steve f F1 World Champ

    Mar 15, 2004
    12,030
    12cylinder town
    Full Name:
    steve
    wow mines done 38000 miles better ring the scrap man see if he wants it

    the garage queen ownwers have spent more on polish than i have on petrol
     
  18. Zanny1

    Zanny1 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 19, 2003
    446
    Prescott, Arizona
    Full Name:
    Mike
    I have owned 6 different Ferraris over the years and learned a thing or two.... look at the odometer but take the car at face value. My first F car was a 1975 GT4 with 108,000 miles on it and one of the most reliable F cars I ever owned. My second was a 1981 308 GTSi with 18,000 miles on the clock...a real POS. Third was a 1977 308 GTB with 55,000 documented miles on the clock... again reliable as could be.
    Another thing to consider.....it always took me 6 months to a year to sell these cars to a private party, so be patient.
    A well serviced V-8 will run well into the 12oK range without major rebuild problems (other than the transmission, which seems to have a love affair with slow sychros).
     
  19. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
    Sponsor Owner

    Dec 7, 2003
    14,821
    Winston Salem, NC
    Full Name:
    Daniel

    That is the BEST quote I've read in a LONG time on Fchat. Amen, brother!
     
  20. jungathart

    jungathart Guest

    Jun 11, 2004
    3,350
    NoVA, AmeriKa
    Full Name:
    Komrade Jung
    Hi mondialrush,
    My 83 MD QV was bought with 52K miles without hesitation due to the fact that it has been properly serviced. I drive it every day that I could. I am actually itching to add another Ferrari [possibly a topless MD, or 308GTB] and would actually prefer a car that has been driven enough to have bugs worked out by previous owners. I would only need to see records of its last major sercice.
    Unless its for strictly display purposes why would someone buy a car not driven enough to have revealed all its gremlins?
    That car of yours will sell, and likely to someone who will actually enjoy DRIVING!
     
  21. patpong

    patpong Formula 3

    Jul 6, 2004
    2,170
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Full Name:
    Patpong Thanavisuth
    I guess in my case, Thailand, There are not that many Ferrari's around. Total of the whole country are less than 300. At the moment, there are about 10 used that are available for sale. Only two Testarossa available. I have spent weeks now to determine which to buy or back off from all. I certainly not wanting a big service bill waiting. Reverse mileage is a very common in Thailand. Since there is no speed limit in my country, nearly all Ferrari owner here pushes their cars really hard. When we, Ferrari club Thailand have a sprint out town, we usually drive about 240 km/h on an average. Some went all the way to 300 km/h. Some spinned their wheels every green light. There are collectors here as well but hardly there cars ever get to be on sale.
    I guess 30,000 mile Ferrari in Thailand may be a bit more beat up than 30,000 miles US Ferrari....
     
  22. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Two Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    May 4, 2001
    25,671
    Birmingham, AL
    Full Name:
    Tommy

    Are there a lot of good Ferrari repair shops in Thailand?
     
  23. JSessions

    JSessions Guest

    May 23, 2005
    78
    SC
    Full Name:
    Jason Sessions
    Someone will buy it. I sold my 308 with 65K miles on it two years ago, and it only took 4 months. It was fully documented, great shape, strong engine, and drove well. If your car has been serviced by a Ferrari mechanic, just refer all you calls to them. It might help to put the mileage in the ad (if not already), that way you avoid the 'tire-kickers'.
     
  24. gatsby

    gatsby Karting

    Apr 26, 2005
    206
    half moon bay, CA
    Full Name:
    jim
    The good doc is right on with this one. My 328 has over 94,000 miles - not a drop of anything from anywhere under car. Looks fantastic and happy, especially at 4K rpm. Regular maintenance is the key.
     
  25. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 9, 2003
    8,209
    wisconsin/chicago
    Full Name:
    bo
    The reality of it is that MOST f-cars have low mileage (we can debate on whether thats real or not). Most folks believe that a higher mileage car is worth less than a low mileage car, and I concur.

    Some will argue that a well used car is better...I just don't see it. This is based on the presumption that the higher mileage car was IMMACULATELY maintained, with every parts that was wearing out, replaced. This theory also presumes that the garage queen has tons of dry rot, lots of weeping seals, and is ready to explode... This just isn't the case.

    High mileage cars WEAR OUT. Sure you can replace some things: Belts, brakes, shocks, etc. But there are HUNDREDS of other parts you can't or don't. Wear and tear shows up everywhere. Internal bearings/bushings wear. Who knows if the car was abused?

    And to presume that there are a lot of high mileage cars "in great shape" where the previous owner replaced everything like they should, is a fallacy. Most higher mileage cars had lots of off brand parts. IE. Cheap tires, Sears Shocks, Crappy paint (sure you can buff it - looks nice for a couple of days, then fades), worn bushings, micellaneous groans and creaks, etc. Looking around, many of the 30-40K mile plus cars looked like sh*t. Just the reality of it.

    The GQ, just looked better. Do they seep? Probably? Do the interiors and exteriors look brand new - yes...

    So, in either situation I may need to replace brakes, shocks, seals, etc. But with the garage queen I end up with the better looking car, with the much higher resale.

    The reality of the market is that a 50k mile car is worth less than a 15k mile car. Sorry. Thats how it works with Kia's, Fords, Chevy's, and even Ferraris'. To me, a 50k mile car is worth 40% less than a NICE recently serviced GQ...

    Good luck!
     
  26. mondialrush

    mondialrush Rookie

    Nov 2, 2004
    20
    I appreciate all the positive words regarding my mondial and its so called high mileage at 56,600....

    I decided to write this post because I had some idiot who claimed he's owned mondials before call me and inquire about the car....he asks me the mileage and then said, oh, its going to need a engine rebuild and that's just about the price your asking for the car.....the thing that really bugged me was that everyone one of my ads lists the mileage so I am not sure why this guy called me.....he just kept telling me that I would never be able to sell the car and then he kept me on the phone for a few minutes just babbling about the mileage and such, I guess I am too polite to tell him to get lost....

    the thing about my mondial is it had a major service in 1999 at 50,000 miles, i bought the car in 2003 with 54,000 and knew that in 2004 it would be 5 years and I really should do another major service, so I had it done....

    I have read articles by Michael Sheehan saying that the 5 year deal with majors is over stated and it has sort of grown out of legend that it has to be done....My mechanic, though, said to me, that you don't want the belts to go in a ferrari so you are better off doing it, of course, at the time, I thought I would never sell my mondial, but things change and now I am selling.

    I am glad that there are those of you out there who actually welcome a mondial with 56,600 miles. I feel better knowing that the real F people aren't afraid to own a car that has been actually driven......

    I never understood the idea of a garage queen to begin with, I recently saw a show on HGTV called dream builders and the guy put a 1987 Countach in his living room and he can't remove it because it was put in the room before his windows were installed....talk about a living room queen......
     
  27. mondialrush

    mondialrush Rookie

    Nov 2, 2004
    20
    I just read bpu699 reply that GQ are worth more and I suppose you can't disagree, they are worth more...that's why I want $28,000 for my mondial and not $35,000....

    no doubt a 2000 chevy blazer with 70,000 miles is worth a lot more than one with 150,000 miles.....

    I am just glad that most of the replies are positive that my car, with an excellent maintainance history, is going to be appreciated and eventually sold.
     

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