Winding it up | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Winding it up

Discussion in '206/246' started by mar3kl, May 5, 2013.

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  1. mebowles

    mebowles Karting

    Jan 7, 2013
    147
    Western US
    Full Name:
    Matt
    I love you guys.
     
  2. champtc

    champtc Formula Junior

    Apr 18, 2004
    732
    If you internally balance the crank .... And neutral balance the pulley and the fly ..then you can change the pulley and fly wheel without balancing the whole rotating mass together....
     
  3. rosso corsa motorsport

    rosso corsa motorsport Formula Junior

    Nov 30, 2008
    268
    #28 rosso corsa motorsport, May 7, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  4. rosso corsa motorsport

    rosso corsa motorsport Formula Junior

    Nov 30, 2008
    268

    have you ever seen a damper come apart at 7500 rpm do you know what happen then?? the rubber is 40 years old it need to be replaced before start using the engine near redline, it is not only the rubber that make problem on damper, its also way to loose on the crank, causing material to rub off from the crankshaft and making bearing failure
     
  5. swift53

    swift53 F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 17, 2007
    6,675
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    Alberto
    Peter,
    What is the material? Balancing?

    We have always made alloy dampers for racing Alfa Romeo engines, but they are an inline 4.

    Regards, Alberto
     
  6. GermanDino

    GermanDino F1 Rookie

    Aug 14, 2007
    3,409
    Germany
    Full Name:
    Matthias
    you will find it here:
    new home page H.B.

    Ferrari marked the balancer and the crankshaft with the same number, paired them for good reasons, I was told by an expert....
     
  7. swift53

    swift53 F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 17, 2007
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    Alberto
    Great source Matthias, thank you :) I will check the number on mine.

    Regards, Alberto
     
  8. swift53

    swift53 F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 17, 2007
    6,675
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    Alberto
    Gave Dale a call, at the site recommended by Matthias.

    Very pleasant fellow, and also gave me an education on Harmonic Balancers.

    His strongest point, is that the balancer does not fly apart as some may think, that there is a separation between the outer and inner rings, when in reality, the balancer effectively ceases to work as the rubber becomes too stiff.

    The rubber, allows the outer ring to counterbalance torsional stresses in the crank, thus it is the crank's lifesaver as it has a delayed reaction to torque.

    Proofing is as follows: if your thumbnail hurts when you try to compress the rubber, then it is time to re-rubber.
    Obviously, grease, fuel, very dirty engines end up contaminating that rubber, and at 40 years+ it really is a no-brainer,
    and we all know when Dino was neglected...it really was.

    At a $110 per, I think very inexpensive life insurance and a much smoother running engine.

    Regards, Alberto
     
  9. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

    Feb 14, 2005
    9,294
    CHNDLR
    Full Name:
    Scott
    What part of the harmonic balancer is rubber?
    I thought it was balanced by having precision holes drilled in it at locations that result in a rotating balance
     
  10. TonyL

    TonyL F1 Rookie

    Sep 27, 2007
    3,811
    Norfolk - UK
    Full Name:
    Tony
    There a two metal segments [inner and outer] cores that are joined by rubber, as previously stated this rubber core will become brittle and harden over the years and be less effective in dampening out internal resonance in the engine.

    The damper is a rotating mass outside the dia of the crank and therefore has to be balanced. A small inbalance of a few ounces can be many pounds/force at 7500K. However whether this can be balanced off the engine if open to debate, I say this because when my engine was balanced i had to provide everything that is attached to the crank for balancing and that included the torsional damper (TD) and even the securing bolt / washer. So i would be cautious about just changing it for a new one.

    Incidentally when it came back the outer ring had holes redrilled in several places because the unit was way out of balance. I was advised the TD was OK so refitted it, however stressing the engine IMO is not good and so stick to no more than 5K.

    Tony
     
  11. rosso corsa motorsport

    rosso corsa motorsport Formula Junior

    Nov 30, 2008
    268
    steel and aluminium, fully balanced race damper
     
  12. rosso corsa motorsport

    rosso corsa motorsport Formula Junior

    Nov 30, 2008
    268
    he is very wrong they DO come apart sometime
     
  13. dignini

    dignini Formula 3

    Aug 21, 2005
    1,348
    NJ
    Full Name:
    Luigi Marazzi
    So, if the rubber ring fails then center section stays attached to crankshaft and, outer ring flies away. Is that the scenario? Some collateral damage, but engine keeps spinning, charging light will come on. Time for a new fan belt. :)
     
  14. TonyL

    TonyL F1 Rookie

    Sep 27, 2007
    3,811
    Norfolk - UK
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    Tony
    Nice one, you will have plenty of room to get the new belt on....try the next size down!!

    Seriously, it will do lots of damage.

    Tony
     
  15. rosso corsa motorsport

    rosso corsa motorsport Formula Junior

    Nov 30, 2008
    268
  16. dignini

    dignini Formula 3

    Aug 21, 2005
    1,348
    NJ
    Full Name:
    Luigi Marazzi
    interesting flight path :)

    so when does the damper do most of its work?
    at start up
    0 to 7000 rpm cause it sounds nice
    2nd to 5th at 40mph or 5 to 2nd at 40mph cause the driver can't drive
    slogging at 2500 rpm in 5th cause ....cant think of whey anybody would do that
    learning how to drive and staying between 3500 and 6000 making nice with the gearbox because that's when the engine thinks happy thoughts.

    under normal conditions, I would say starting cold......
     
  17. Pantdino

    Pantdino Formula 3

    Jan 13, 2004
    2,069
    Full Name:
    Jim
    I have my rev limiter set to cut in around 6500.
    Actually I like the sound best a bit below that anyway, so I seldom go to 6K.
     
  18. LARRYH

    LARRYH F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2011
    9,142
    virginia usa
    All of these discussions are good points however whenever I take my DINO or any of my other cars out I Like to run it a 90% or so . I keep my cars well maintained and that is what I bought them for . THe Dino at 6500 RPM is awesome and not to run these cars is a real shame. I probably will hold it a little under redline just to be careful ...
    NOw I have another car 427/435 solid lifter corvette that has the original engine and never been apart that I regularly for the last 12 years run to deadline every time I drive it. I really think it helps the car run better... I could go on but we bought these cars we should RUN THEM as they were designed just my 2cents...
    LarryH
     
  19. dinogts

    dinogts Formula 3
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Have you actually WATCHED the video of the "Turbaned Torpedo" (sic)? (he actually is referred to as the "Turbaned Tornado"). He clearly has his rev limiter set at about 500, and certainly not 7000! Oh, and he didn't run a marathon in Hong Kong - he "ran" 6.2 miles and then retired.

    The last marathon that he ran was Toronto's waterfront marathon which he ran in just over 8 hours and 11 minutes.

    101-Year-Old 'Turbaned Tornado' Retires From Running : The Two-Way : NPR
     
  20. dinogts

    dinogts Formula 3
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Interesting thread, although I have never heard of a Dino's harmonic damper failing.

    But - I have heard of FRAM oil filters failing (like yours). :)
     
  21. GermanDino

    GermanDino F1 Rookie

    Aug 14, 2007
    3,409
    Germany
    Full Name:
    Matthias
    I had a harmonic damper with the rubber so week, that the outer ring loosened...
    It holds on and doesn`t cause any damage....
     
  22. 2dinos

    2dinos F1 Rookie

    Jan 13, 2007
    2,772
    No one mentioned oil cleanliness and temps. When I used to track a fair amount, I'd put in fresh oil before an event, and I was always impressed with how clean it stayed for a given amount of miles -- then I'd compare fresh oil over the same miles, but with gentle street driving, and the oil looked kind of crummy, and I noticed moisture build up under the oil fill caps.

    As for rev's. I'm as aware as anyone regarding the $$$ I put in my engine doing the overhaul, and I kind of compare it to aircraft engine use. The wear is related to the hours on it also depending on how hard its used. Although, I love the song produced when it gets to the 8k number, and it does so - so easily, that I battle my enjoyment vs using it up.

    I guess I trust my overhaul in addition to the engines design / balanced by how infrequently I use it that I will just try and enjoy it - - - - carefully of course:)
     
  23. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    If you are worried about revving your Dino engine to redline, it must be time to rebuild it surely.

    As those that putter around in their Dino appear to be in the "I like to look at my car" crowd, I would encourage you to remove your engine and slowly over time rebuild it. Thankfully you can still look at your beautiful car while the engine is out ... thus a win win situation.

    BTW: A few months ago I went to Eastern Creek to check in on a friend and see how his 911 Porsche was going at his first race meeting. While there I watched another 2.7 RS 911 have a wee bit of trouble starting. I was told by my friend that that car had never had it's engine opened and had been and still is raced as often as the owner can ... and other than the starting issue still performs very well (in fact faster than my friends car).

    Revving an engine to redline is not abuse. Missing oil changes or over revving an engine, or not using a car is abuse.

    If you took your time, ie. a couple of years and did a lot of the assembling yourself you can spread the cost ... but if it was my car, I'd check all valve clearances, inspect engine bearings, etc. and thus ensure it is properly mechanically serviced and relax and enjoy the car with the ocassional blast to redline.
    Pete
     
  24. snowric

    snowric Karting

    Apr 15, 2009
    90
    UK
    Full Name:
    Richard Snow
    I rev mine to near limit once fully warmed at least EVRY drive....last time I nearly helped the son and daughter of my 85 year old neighbour to an early inheritance - i could think of worse ways to go.

    I also put a steering column extender (from superformances) on which took the wheel off my lap and helped viz of the speedo and rev counter.

    R
     
  25. SCantera

    SCantera F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 4, 2004
    5,111
    Living Falls NC
    In the June issue of Sports Car Market there is an article on a 1967 2.4L Fiat Dino Spider that sold at RM at Amelia in March. In the article written by Donald Osborne, a very knowledgeable expert is the statement......

    "That sparkling performance was also very reliable - thanks to the work of Fiat engineers led by Aurelio Lampredi. They had to rationalize the design of the 2-liter engine for factory production in Turin. While it was redlined at 8,000 rpm, the engine was actually test run up to 10,000 rpm."

    If this is so then let 'er rip!
     

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