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Wow! Great Brakes!

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by donaldh2o, Nov 10, 2003.

  1. donaldh2o

    donaldh2o Karting

    Nov 10, 2003
    143
    Irvine CA
    Full Name:
    Don
    Just replaced all the brake pads and brake fluid in my 1976 308. Brakes are like brand new: very little pedal travel, hard with no sponginess and the damn car stops on a dime.

    Interesting to learn that Ferrari has a braking delimiter in the lines going to the rear wheels. What this means is if you slam on the brakes the front wheels will lock-up but the rear wheels will not. They did this because of the rear placement of the engine to keep the car from spinning around during hard braking while going around corners (sic).

    The brakes on the old 308s are some of the most widely used brakes in Europe, starting in the 60s all the way through 2002. The front pads are D45 and the rear pads are D31 - found on Mercedes, Audi, Puegot, and about 90 other European models. The pads are available everywhere.

    After replacing both rear pad sets, its important for proper parking brake action to adjust the play (jiggle) in the rear pads using the allen wrench adjustments on the front and rear faces of the calipers. Using a feeler gauge between the pads and the rotor, I think the play is adjusted to .004". After that, you've got to readjust your parking brake. With the feeler gauge still in place, tighten the parking brake adjuster until the gap between the pads and rotors begin to close and tighten on the feeler gauge. Back it off until the .004 feeler gauge can be pulled free. This gives your parking brake the maximum amount of braking for the least amount of handle travel.

    There are no adjustments for the front pads.

    I replaced the fluid with Castro GT-LMA, which has a lower dry boiling point than many of the high-end fluids but has a higher "wet" boiling point than many of those same high-end fluids (311 F, 155 C).

    In case you don't know, as soon as you put fresh fluid in your brake system, the fluid starts obsorbing water from the air. In other words, becoming "wetter" with each passing day. If you race your car and replace the fluid weekly, then you would probably use a higher grade fluid with a high dry boiling point. But if you don't race your car or replace the fluid often, then you want a fluid that absorbs water more slowly and that is one of the advantages of Castro GT LMA along with the higher wet boiling point.

    Either way, its a simple and inexpensive job to replace your fluid and very rewarding: brakes that feel and work like brand new. I sucked the old fluid out using the MityVac pump into a 2-cup Pyrex measuring cup. It was a one man job.

    Bendix brake pads from Autozone about $45.
    Brake fluid from Pep Boys about $10.
    MityVac Brake Bleeding Kit from JC Whitney about $35

    Good Luck!
     
  2. Mike C

    Mike C F1 Veteran
    Owner Lifetime Rossa

    Aug 3, 2002
    6,061
    Southeast USA
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    Mike Charness
    What many of us do is use a turkey baster to suck brake fluid out of the reservior, and then replace it with fresh fluid. Do this every three months or so, and always before a track event, and you keep your fluid fresher with less moisture (and thus less likelihood of brake fade). That way you can do it without having to bleed the system.
     
  3. 308GTS

    308GTS Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2001
    2,220
    TN
    Do you have the part # so I can get some new pads at Autozone? Is it D45 and D31? Great tips. I didn't know you could get the pads at Autozone.
     
  4. pete04222

    pete04222 Formula Junior

    Nov 1, 2003
    613
    Maine, USA
    Full Name:
    Peter Cyr
    Great tips Donald! Thanks.
     
  5. Morrie

    Morrie Karting

    Nov 4, 2003
    207
    Sarasota/Asheville
    I tracked a turbo Porsche for five years. It's probably as hard on brakes as you can imagine. I Used Castrol LMA exclusively and never had brake fade.
     
  6. rexrcr

    rexrcr Formula 3

    Nov 27, 2002
    1,572
    Kalamazoo, MI
    Full Name:
    Rob Schermerhorn
    This is a force proportioning valve. It's output is dependent on the input pressure, below a threshold, the relationship is 1:1, above this pressure the output begins to drop, though theoretically linear response, in practice it is not.

    The proportioning valve in the rear brake line will not "prevent" rear wheel lockup, it will help reduce the possibility though.

    The valves are usually stamped with a pressure (in Bar) at the 'rated' initial pressure reduction point.

    Later ABS equipped models also have a brake 'delay' valve too, to dampen the initial pressure spike to the rear brakes. These look similar, so be wary if you're attempting to modify the system.

    Best regards,

    Rob Schermerhorn
     
  7. Sean F.

    Sean F. F1 Rookie

    Feb 4, 2003
    2,997
    Kansas
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    Sean F
    Then you will always have old nasty fluid in your lines, and new fluid in the reservoir. What's good about that?

    You have to BLEED the lines to get new fluid in them.
     
  8. Dave

    Dave F1 Rookie

    Apr 15, 2001
    2,722
    Little Rock
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    David Jones
    I use the turkey baster as well to clear the reservoir,
    But always do a full bleed on the system.
     
  9. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Two Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    May 4, 2001
    28,707
    Birmingham, AL
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    Tommy
    I bought on of those "power bleeders" that you fill with your fluid of choice (I use ATE Racing Blue). It is a really easy one man system. It just screws on the brake fluid reservoir and you pump it up to about 10lbs. Then all you have to do is walk around the car and open the lines into your bottle. The fluid just pisses right out once you crack the line open. Of course I remove as much of the fluid in the reservoir as I can first and replace it with fresh fluid.

    I always change my brake fluid before AND AFTER a track event. Same with the oil. As soon as I am home all the track fluids are removed and new is put in. Just my way of doing things.
     
  10. 308GTS

    308GTS Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2001
    2,220
    TN
    What brand power bleeder did you get? I was looking into the mighty vac and another one but someone told me it didn't perform that well.
     
  11. Dom

    Dom F1 Veteran
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    Nov 5, 2002
    7,532
    Southern California
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    Dom V.

    I have the Motive Power bleeder, works great. I also have a mityvac pump, that I was less than happy with. With the mityvac, when you suction from the caliper, air can leak from the caliper screws, so you don't get a good bleed. I've heard that people will remove the bleeder screws, and wrap with teflon tape for better results, but I never tried it. Instead I bought the motive power bleeder.

    With the power bleeder (http://www.motiveproducts.com/), you fill the container with brake fluid, attach it to the master cylinder, pump it up to about 10 psi, then bleed from the bleed screws. Worked great for me. Definately worth the ~$50.

    I bought the powerbleeder from International-auto.com (it was about $1 cheaper than from the motive site, and I was also ordering some stuff for my alfa).

    Dom
     
  12. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Two Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    May 4, 2001
    28,707
    Birmingham, AL
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    Tommy
    That's the one that I have. I paid around $50. I have tried others without success. This one works. I have used it to bleed My Alfa's clutch slave cylinder also. It is really the only thing that works for a slave. No more begging a friend to come over and help.
     
  13. cavallo_nero

    cavallo_nero Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
    1,606
    colorado
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    Giovanni Pasquale
    i looked at the site for the motive power bleeder, and did not see ferrari listed for the adapter. what adapter is used for the 308??
     
  14. Dom

    Dom F1 Veteran
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    Nov 5, 2002
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    Same adapter as the one on the alfa. I think it's the european one. I ordered mine from International-auto.com, and it fits both my alfa and my gt4

    Dom
     
  15. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Two Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    May 4, 2001
    28,707
    Birmingham, AL
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    Tommy
    Dom's right. That is where I got mine. The Alfa one fits my 308QV
     
  16. cavallo_nero

    cavallo_nero Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
    1,606
    colorado
    Full Name:
    Giovanni Pasquale
    thanks you guys. i plan on ordering the brake bleed system. if they have a spray adapter, i can use it to fertilize my lawn too - lol
     
  17. 308GTS

    308GTS Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2001
    2,220
    TN
    Anyone got the Autzone Part #? I tried the D.. and they didn't know what I was talking about and of course I got the ? "What kind of car you got?" Get this ****, I say Ferrari, he says "Yeah but I need to know who makes Ferrari". I couldn't stop myself from laughing my ass off.
     
  18. 4re gt4

    4re gt4 Formula 3

    Apr 23, 2002
    2,279
    Roseburg, OR
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    Hans E. Hansen
  19. 308GTS

    308GTS Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2001
    2,220
    TN
    Still holding out for the part#
     
  20. Sean F.

    Sean F. F1 Rookie

    Feb 4, 2003
    2,997
    Kansas
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    Sean F
    Bendix, as he stated in his original post. Is that not what you're looking for?
     
  21. 308GTS

    308GTS Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2001
    2,220
    TN
    Yes I can read but why don't you call Autozone and tell them what you are looking for. Read my last few posts. Make sense?
     
  22. donaldh2o

    donaldh2o Karting

    Nov 10, 2003
    143
    Irvine CA
    Full Name:
    Don
    Love it, "Yeah, but I got to know who makes Ferrari." LOL

    OK, so I screwed up on my original post - I got the brake pads at Car Quest not Autozone. But Autozone, Kragen, and Car Quest carry these pads. However, they may be not be listed as Ferrari parts. Tell them your car is a 1972 Mercedes-Benz 280SE, which uses the same pads.

    The brakes on the 308 were manufactured by ATE, now called Continental Teves, one of the largest auto parts makers in the world. www.alfredteves.com. These brake pads (D45 and D31) are on dozens of cars from the 1960s to 2000s.

    I'm looking at the boxes I bought at Car Quest right now. "Bendix O.E.M. Brake Pads" - D45 for the front pads and D31 for the rear pads. Bought them at the local Irvine City Auto Parts (949) 551-5588, a Car Quest Dealer. Go to www.carquest.com to find your local store.

    Kragen has several choices listed for the 1972 Mercedes 280SE:

    Raybestos numbers are PG45, RPD45 and Bendix numbers are D145Q, D145 and MKD145. Same thing for the rear pads. PG31, RPD31, etc.

    One advantage in buying them at Kragen is you never have to pay for pads again if you buy their lifetime guaranteed pads.

    For a good step-by-step description of installing new pads on the 308 go to http://home.att.net/~ferrari/brakes5.htm
     
  23. 308GTS

    308GTS Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2001
    2,220
    TN
    Thanks Don, I appreciate it. I found them. Great Tips.
     
  24. Dom

    Dom F1 Veteran
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    Nov 5, 2002
    7,532
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    Dom V.
    If you look in the parts and service section of this site, I have an article (with photos) for changing the brake pads on 308 GT4 (which should be the same as on the 308 GTB/S).

    Dom
     
  25. 308GTS

    308GTS Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2001
    2,220
    TN
    I just read through it. Great post Dom. The pics are very nice. What did you use to push you caliper back in on the front?

    Would the rotors be the same for the 280 Mercedes as for the 308?
     

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