News

Zandvoort corner banking to be twice as steep as Indianapolis

Discussion in 'F1' started by mcimino, Nov 24, 2019.

  1. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    Quite often new ideas are not accepted because they upset existing principles.
    I think mine is in that category, and I'll leave it at that.
    Cheers.
     
  2. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Glad to see the track progress. Would be really nice if they finally would release tickets for sale.
     
  3. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 F1 Veteran
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  4. Adrian Thompson

    Adrian Thompson Karting

    Apr 28, 2004
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    I have to assume the post about adding a run off gravel trap is a joke. First, while many accidents happen when a car just tags the wall while already on the high line, lot's of accidents happen when two cars touch at the bottom, or one car just spins out from the bottom. Then you have a 200+mph missile pointing straight up the track, correction, now launch ramp. Those cars would just fly. I guess I could calculate the angle and speed of take off to see how a) high and b) far they'd travel before touchdown, but come on, seriously? Also, even if those accidents never happened and the only accidents were glancing blows, it's still lethally dangerous. Look at all the effort put into stopping cars flipping these days. NASCAR has panels that flip up to stall the air and stop the cars going over. Prototypes have fins. Indy cars have cut outs in the under tray etc. You would be instantly negating all that work by firing a missile at an angle away from the earth.
     
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  5. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Thanks for the update. Cool to see it happening and growing. Never thought much about the construction aspects, but neat to see what I believe will be the underpass to the inside of the ring/Paddock. Pit area seems already complete.
     
  6. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Rookie
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    Underpass is made up in modules?
     
  7. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    'Anyone come up with the radius, or actual length (if radius is constant) and degrees of direction change (from which we could derive the radius) of the banked turn? 'Looks pretty damned steep compared to Indy (as it should at 2x the banking).
    Not knowing the above, it's hard to estimate the speed achievable around it.
    [​IMG] Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Each of Indy's oval's are 1/4 mile per (90 degree turns), thus a circumference (C) of 1 mile. C=π2r [pi x 2 radius (or 1/2 diameter)], thus Indy's radii are approx. 1/6 of a mile, and Indy Cars (that don't handle as well as F1) take them at 220 ish. (of course, being only 90 degrees, they also straighten them out somewhat with the 1/8 mile short chutes between 1 & 2 and 3 & 4)
    'Would be interesting to surmise what they might do around the turn at Zandvoort.
    Anywho, we'll see for certain soon enough.... :)
     
  8. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    Cool indeed. Pre-fab tunnel parts. Just drop 'em in, assemble and cover 'em up. ;)
    [​IMG]
    Now, on the other hand, addressing drainage down in 'de hole.......a plumber's nightmare.........:eek:
     
  9. Mikestradale

    Mikestradale Formula 3
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    Drone video of the banked turn (shot on January 7). Still quite a bit of work to do...

     
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  10. Adrian Thompson

    Adrian Thompson Karting

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    Pedantic point of order. Unless you are Alexandra Rossi, Marcus Ericsson or Fernando Alonso you can't make any comment on the relative handling of a modern F1 car and an Indy car. You can say due to a different rule set that an Indy car doesn't have as high a corner speed as an F1 car. Handling is a measure of the relative control-ability of a vehicle and is subjective. Roadholding can be reduced to a 'G' figure. Also on Superspeedways like Indy, Indy cars run different aero that has much much less downforce than their road and street track aero kit as they are looking for much higher straightaway speed.
     
  11. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Veteran

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    No kidding it looks as delayed as the Vietnam track...
     
  12. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    Please tell me you're just kidding.....:(

    Or, are you out there, with those that don't believe we put men on the moon.:rolleyes:

    A piece o'sheet spec Dallara can't touch even a Williams re: handling. If you really believe that, I'll pray for you. ;)
     
  13. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
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    I don´t thnk any comparison with Indy is possible. At Indy they already enter the corner at full speed, while at Zandvoort they come from a short straight after a 90º degree corner. They still will be gaining speed when they leave the banking.
     
  14. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    Good pernt. I wasn't meaning as a comparative; I was just relating what and how they do at Indy.
    Still, does anyone know of site with specs of the banked corner/turn (hard to call a flat out turn a "corner" even tho' it appears sorta' tight) ?
     
  15. Adrian Thompson

    Adrian Thompson Karting

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    Nope, sorry not kidding.
    Don't worry, we landed on the moon, the earth approximates a sphere and chem trails are just water vapor. I'm an engineer and to me handling is how a vehicle reacts to inputs. It has nothing to do with ultimate grip or road holding. You can have a slow car with very low grip that handles sublimely, just as you can have an incredibly fast and high power car that can go round corners at insane speeds yet handles poorly. Just a pet peeve. Road holding, speed etc. are objective measures. Handling is a subjective concept. Others may disagree, but that's how I use the terms in my professional life. The current DW12 chassis by all accounts started as an evil handling car, but these days it has great handling characteristics. The only people who can comment on the handling of an F1 or Indy car are those who drive them (or engineer them) and off the top of my head I can't think of anyone who recent, relevant experience in both categories except the three I mentioned. I'm sure there are others who've tested both, but those are the three I can think of who've raced in both classes in the last five years.

    Not trying to be an ass, although I may be one anyway.

    Cheers.
     
  16. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    None of us has to "try". It just happens, or, more importantly, appears to, from time to time. ;)

    I've never driven an Indycar or F1 one; 'have other race cars, many moons, ago and I feel I can comment. Although I understand your thoughts regarding handling vs the rest, I never, nor did I hear any fellow drivers generally commenting about how well car could be hustled around a circuit in any other term than handling......unless debriefing with an engineer. ;)
    Now that I know your position, I understand. :)
    So, in your terms, I'd be willing to wager in any amount, that a mega million dollar F1 chassis can outperform ( a neutral enuff term?:cool:) a production line Dallara DW-18 (or whatever they're called these days) any day of the week. :p

    G'day to you too. :)
     
  17. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    None of us has to "try". It just happens, or, more importantly, appears to happen, from time to time. ;)

    I've never driven an Indycar or F1 one; 'have other race cars, many moons ago, and I feel I can comment. Although I understand your thoughts regarding handling vs the rest, I never, nor did I hear any fellow drivers, g commenting generally, about how well car could be hustled around a circuit in any other term than handling......unless debriefing with an engineer. ;)
    Over the years I've heard numerous F1 drivers diplomatically commenting, after their first test in an Indy car, how "nice" and more "forgiving" they are than their "nervous" F1 cars. We know (or should know) that that means slower....a horse of the farm vs. a thoroughbred. ;)
    Now that I know your position, I understand. :)

    So, knowing your lingo, I'd be willing to wager, in any amount, that a mega million dollar F1 chassis can outperform (a neutral enuff term?:cool:) a production line Dallara DW-18 (or whatever they're called these days) any day of the week. :p

    G'day to you too. :)
     
  18. 308luver

    308luver Formula Junior

    May 4, 2006
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    Outperform at what?
    Because if we are talking an oval....Indy car will annihilate the F1 car, it's what it is designed to do. Hell if they let a NASCAR pull the restrictor it would take an F1 car on a big oval.
     
  19. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I doubt it. A F1 car can easily beat the top speed and downforce of an IRL car.
     
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  20. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    Although I stand by my thoughts, in somewhat normal configuration, an F1 car would not. It would need to be trimmed out for most of the ovals IndyCar runs at.
    The silly comment about the stockers (which I also have respect for in their own right) doesn't even deserve consideration. Same thang......'trimmed out, there wouldn't be a prayer.

    'Just wondering what rationale, if serious, 308 is using. Trolling, mayhaps? ;)
     
  21. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Remember the Honda F1, which set a speed record on the salt flats?

    I'm not worried about their speed or downforce but I wonder whether a F1 car would survive an Indy 500 from a structural perspective: That's a LOT of G forces all the time on the suspension and Indy ovals are not as smooth as F1 tracks. And then there is the obvious white elephant of the tires: F1 couldn't race for 70 laps through just one turn on their Michelins, so how would the tires hold up for the duration of a race with 4 turns? Obviously no Michelins. Ca ne va pas.
     
  22. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    And 'weren't talking about race distance, but, now that you mention it, why assume they would not use the Indy tires? We know the F1 tires are not designed for such circumstances. Nor the chassis/suapension parts/ drivetrains.
    Apples and oranges. My initial post regarding this (and forgetting they won't have a run-up to the banked turn) was just about what Indycars do through 1/6 plus mile radius (entry/apex/exit) turns as a reference.

    And on that note, back to my original, does anyone have the length/# of degrees/radius (if constant) of the turn? :cool:
     
  23. Mikestradale

    Mikestradale Formula 3
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    New update video. It’s in dutch but you can see some new shots of the progress. They say they’re ahead of schedule and the asphalt will be laid between mid and end of february.

     
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