FF, FF-M or FF-GT, Which would you prefer?

NeuroBeaker · Feb 21, 2011

PeterTremulis2011 said: ↑

My estimates for the GT are based upon my informed WAG. My uncle explained automotive aerodynamics to me when I was young and he took the time to explain the concepts and math involved in determining a drag coefficient. Also, I studied the Pete Brock Daytona Cobra Coupe in comparison to versions designed by the UK and Italian firms prior to its introduction to the European race circuit in the mid-60's, it was clear that a fastback version was the way to go for high speed superiority on the Mulsane straight. The slight variation in roofline as executed by the fabricators was also evident. The camback design coupled with a rear spoiler allowed that car to outperform anything that it shared the track with. My brother Steve is writing a biography of Alex detailing the numerous projects that Alex was involved with thoughout his illustrious automotive design career from his early involvement with Augie Dusenberg and the design of his land speed record holder to his involvement late in his career with other streamlining projects. Here are couple of early pics that show Alex's handywork in designing modification for the 65' Mustang by adding a rear spoiler and a redesigned front air intake. Also included is a "Breadvan" which did not have the top end speed Ferrari had hoped for and evokes the FF in its current form.

The FF height and width lead me to believe that it's coefficent of drag is high compared to the 612 or 599 and that the chopped GT version would dramatically improve the GT versions top end performance over the FF. The rear diffuser is performs the same function as the Daytona rear spoiler. If diffuser's were understood in the mid-60's, they might not have had to add the spoiler to hold the Daytona down at speed.
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I'm not sure the FF is to the 612/599 what the Breadvan was to the 250 GTO. For one thing, aerodynamics have moved on tremendously since the 1960s and a lot more is known about drag coefficients and ways in which to reduce them. I don't think the advantage is going to be as great as you suggest... otherwise the top speed of the current 599 GTO would be nigh on 220mph instead of maxing out at approximately 208mph - just as the FF does.

PeterTremulis2011 said: ↑

Also attached is a modern interpretation of a GTO 612 by a well regarded designer. Stunning concept.
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That's Sasha "The Angry Car Designer" Selipanov's design:

Full picture sets (2010):

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/06/08/angry-car-designer-dreams-up-a-ferrari-612-gto/

http://www.theblogismine.com/2010/06/10/ferrari-612-gto-concept-by-sasha-selipanov/

http://www.luxist.com/2010/06/17/ferrari-612-gto-concept-by-sasha-selipanov/

Discussed in various places on FChat:

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=285275 (2010)

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=299481 (2010)

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=312126 (2011)

It is a very bold design. At first I didn't like it at all, but I must admit it's growing on me. I still don't love it, but I don't dislike it as I did when it first came out.

As to describing Sasha as a well-regarded designer, I think the current consensus is that he's extremely young but shows tremendous talent. His main claim to fame is his GTO design concept and he hasn't yet lead the design team for anything like that which has reached fruition beyond the rendering-only stage. One to watch for the future, certainly - but not yet someone I would refer to as a well-regarded designer in the same manner for which you would someone who has had success in the more traditional sense of achieving acclaim for designs that made it into production.

It is a nice concept, but (as mentioned in discussions on FChat) no allowances were made for the headroom of passengers, for instance. Either compromised in the shape will have to be made or that car is going to be absolutely gargantuan in size to achieve unaltered aesthetics.

All the best,
Andrew.

PeterTremulis2011 · Feb 21, 2011

Well, I think there are a few constraints to take into consideraton. The weight of the vehicle is a significant factor in relation to the power to weight ratio. Also, the final gear ratio is very important in determining top speed potential. It would be interesting to compare the FF and the 612 based upon thier gear ratios and thier achievable top speeds. If the engine is maxed out in top gear and the terminal velocity is say 208, there is an opportunity to regear the car to achieve a higher top end. If the top speed is limited by a rev limiter, there is also an opportunity to run higher top speeds by disabling the rev limiter. If the engine does not max out at 208, but is instead drag limited to its terminal velocity of 208, then we have the opportunity to look at drag coefficient to see what can be done to improve aerodynamics. For one think, both the 612 and the FF have a tremendously large grill opening that increases drag significantly. Realizing that heat is a problem for a large displacement 12 cylinder engine, the need for the gapping grill opening is significant, however, its is not clear to me where the exits are for the amount of air entering the engine compartment. The fender vents on the FF fenders look rather small and there could be considerable air pressure building under the hood of the FF which would equate to a higher drag coefficient. If there were hood vents in addition to the fender vents, you might be able to get a few more miles per hour out of the car by reducing frontal air pressure or the plowing of air around the automobile. I also sense the FF's long roofline and termination in a camback style is producing turbulence which also will create drag. The rear diffuser sucks the car down on the roadway by creating a low pressure zone below the rear bumper, but does little to unscramble the air from the rear bumper up to the trailing edge of the roofline.

Chopping the top two inches on the GT version will reduce the C of D and help reach higher top speeds, again, only if the gearing indicates that there are more revs in the engine available to hit higher top speeds. Active aerodynamics may also help. Again the grill area is a potential area of active aero aids by closing grill area so the amount of air at high speeds is closed out from entering the engine compartment. A bit of math and testing will help to identify the amount of air needed to adequatley cool the engine near wide open throttle. It likely does not need the entire airflow available from the current opening and therefore could benefit form active aero components.

Do you have access to the specifications for the FF? Can we take a look a the gearing in relation to the top speed provided by Ferrari for the FF? It would be fun to do the comparo between the 612, 599 and FF on these factors and the thier respective C of D's and overall gearing and horsepower.

NeuroBeaker · Feb 22, 2011

PeterTremulis2011 said: ↑

Well, I think there are a few constraints to take into consideraton. The weight of the vehicle is a significant factor in relation to the power to weight ratio. Also, the final gear ratio is very important in determining top speed potential. It would be interesting to compare the FF and the 612 based upon thier gear ratios and thier achievable top speeds. If the engine is maxed out in top gear and the terminal velocity is say 208, there is an opportunity to regear the car to achieve a higher top end. If the top speed is limited by a rev limiter, there is also an opportunity to run higher top speeds by disabling the rev limiter. If the engine does not max out at 208, but is instead drag limited to its terminal velocity of 208, then we have the opportunity to look at drag coefficient to see what can be done to improve aerodynamics. For one think, both the 612 and the FF have a tremendously large grill opening that increases drag significantly. Realizing that heat is a problem for a large displacement 12 cylinder engine, the need for the gapping grill opening is significant, however, its is not clear to me where the exits are for the amount of air entering the engine compartment. The fender vents on the FF fenders look rather small and there could be considerable air pressure building under the hood of the FF which would equate to a higher drag coefficient. If there were hood vents in addition to the fender vents, you might be able to get a few more miles per hour out of the car by reducing frontal air pressure or the plowing of air around the automobile. I also sense the FF's long roofline and termination in a camback style is producing turbulence which also will create drag. The rear diffuser sucks the car down on the roadway by creating a low pressure zone below the rear bumper, but does little to unscramble the air from the rear bumper up to the trailing edge of the roofline.

Chopping the top two inches on the GT version will reduce the C of D and help reach higher top speeds, again, only if the gearing indicates that there are more revs in the engine available to hit higher top speeds. Active aerodynamics may also help. Again the grill area is a potential area of active aero aids by closing grill area so the amount of air at high speeds is closed out from entering the engine compartment. A bit of math and testing will help to identify the amount of air needed to adequatley cool the engine near wide open throttle. It likely does not need the entire airflow available from the current opening and therefore could benefit form active aero components.
Click to expand...

I wonder if there will eventually be an upgraded version of the FF available with bonnet slats or if it will be kept as a 'clean' design? It'll be interesting to see what Ferrari do about that.

PeterTremulis2011 said: ↑

Do you have access to the specifications for the FF? Can we take a look a the gearing in relation to the top speed provided by Ferrari for the FF? It would be fun to do the comparo between the 612, 599 and FF on these factors and the thier respective C of D's and overall gearing and horsepower.
Click to expand...

I'm afraid I'm not a technical expert and don't have any special lines of information on that. The 599 and 612 must surely have some data stored about FChat somewhere; I'm sure some diligent digging around would find it. As for the FF, I'm not sure if such detailed technical specifications have been released yet.

Surely it would still be very difficult to discuss drag coefficients beyond general principles without precise measurements of each car? I recall reading in Jim's P4/5 thread that Pininfarina's aerodynamicists were in the wind tunnel fine-tuning the aerodynamics of the full-scale model with a file to reduce turbulence around the wheel arches and reduce overall drag. Very subtle (almost visibly imperceptible) changes to a panel made dramatic differences to the air flow.

All the best,
Andrew.

PeterTremulis2011 · Feb 23, 2011

The GT is a two place version. The M is a 2+2 (2 adults and 2 12 and under). The FF is a true 4 place (4 adults). I will see if Flavio Manzoni will spend some time on the drawing board and create an higher quality rendering of the GT. Perhaps the panel beaters at Pininfarina can offer it as an option. Perhaps in time for the Mille Miglia and call it the Striling Moss Edition.
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NeuroBeaker · Feb 23, 2011

PeterTremulis2011 said: ↑

The GT is a two place version. The M is a 2+2 (2 adults and 2 12 and under). The FF is a true 4 place (4 adults). I will see if Flavio Manzoni will spend some time on the drawing board and create an higher quality rendering of the GT. Perhaps the panel beaters at Pininfarina can offer it as an option. Perhaps in time for the Mille Miglia and call it the Striling Moss Edition.
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Do you personally know Flavio Manzoni to make such a request?

All the best,
Andrew.

PeterTremulis2011 · Feb 23, 2011

I don't know him personally, but he does read his emails.

Tifosi15 · Feb 23, 2011

PeterTremulis2011 said: ↑

I don't know him personally, but he does read his emails.
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I'm sure he gets photoshops from people of all ages everyday

PeterTremulis2011 · Feb 23, 2011

Most likely. Seems like a good guy from what I have learned.

ingegnere · Feb 23, 2011

PeterTremulis2011 said: ↑

The GT is a two place version. The M is a 2+2 (2 adults and 2 12 and under). The FF is a true 4 place (4 adults). I will see if Flavio Manzoni will spend some time on the drawing board and create an higher quality rendering of the GT. Perhaps the panel beaters at Pininfarina can offer it as an option. Perhaps in time for the Mille Miglia and call it the Striling Moss Edition.
Click to expand...

The 2-seater based on the FF platform will be the 599 replacement (like the 599 was based on the 612), and will look nothing like the FF except for maybe using the FF windshield and A-pillar structure.

If, as LdM has already hinted, there are any other variations of the FF, these will probably include a more traditional coupe version - many people have already posted a bunch of pretty good photoshops already - and a convertible version of the coupe.

Are you seriously expecting Manzoni to make a rendering for you for the fun of it? And do you really expect Pininfarina panel-beaters to produce parts for a series production car??

Tifosi15 · Feb 23, 2011

ingegnere said: ↑

The 2-seater based on the FF platform will be the 599 replacement (like the 599 was based on the 612), and will look nothing like the FF except for maybe using the FF windshield and A-pillar structure.

If, as LdM has already hinted, there are any other variations of the FF, these will probably include a more traditional coupe version - many people have already posted a bunch of pretty good photoshops already - and a convertible version of the coupe.

Are you seriously expecting Manzoni to make a rendering for you for the fun of it? And do you really expect Pininfarina panel-beaters to produce parts for a series production car??
Click to expand...

A droptop would probably be the most plausible, I seriously doubt they would consider a coupe version. When did LdM hint these things? I guess I missed that memo

PeterTremulis2011 · Feb 23, 2011

I doubt I am the first person to see the FF as a strong candidate for Series variants. What interests me most is that Ferrari came out with a design that seems to shoot at a narrow niche play in a market that craves hyper design and hyper performance. While the performance is hyper based upon the published performance specifications offered by Ferrari to date, the body design seems to be aimed at the female which may have also been the intended target of the California. With the California though, the coupe to convertible metamorphasis offers both coupe and convertible buyers the best of both worlds in a package that looks and feels very Ferrari even if the original designs were in fact initially conceptualized by the Masserati design team. The FF in contrast is geared to a smaller target market and does not offer the versatility of the California since its a fixed roof four seater.

As to the FF-GT concept that my son Daniel designed, I offer it to Flavio as indication that the coupe version has strong potential and that it could be produced as a one off in time for the Mille Miglia if Pininfarina body fabricators are enlisted to produce this version for display purposes for that event. The GT version looks to me to be a "Heritage" version, perhaps a Fangio namesake is appropriate. Ferrari revealed a "Vintage" program recently that allows an owner to add bits and peices, most made of alloy, that when installed, evoke the Ferrari GT's of the late 50's and early 60's. So I think Ferrari is feeling the nostalia bug as have other automakers including Ford, GM and Chrysler with the re-introduction of musclecars based upon thier early successful 60's models.

If Flavio proceeds with some sketches of the FF-GT version and shares them with me, I will post them for Ferrarichat members to comment on. To me, Ferrarichat represents a great venue to solicit commentary as the members are Ferrari enthusiasts and owners and well informed and willing to share thier views, positive or negative. For a person in Flavio's position, he is expected to be the center of focus when it comes to design issues and his celebrity status bears that out. I am a member of his fan club on facebook and have posted there as well.

Social networking and email have dramatically improved the access to thought leaders in almost any industry, but certainly within the automobile industry. Again, I beleive Flavio considers constructive correspondance from Farrari fans as part of his territory, even if the public relations teams restrict his ability to communicate directly regarding the direction Ferrari plans to take the FF in the future.

Customizing Ferrari models, even brand new models, is well established and the revised roofline illustrated by the GT is a small modification by comparison to entire rebodied Ferrari's as has happend on numberous occasions in the past by Ferrari for thier best customers and by coachbuilders as well.

ingegnere · Feb 23, 2011

Tifosi15 said: ↑

A droptop would probably be the most plausible, I seriously doubt they would consider a coupe version. When did LdM hint these things? I guess I missed that memo
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In this interview, before it was revealed that the Scaglietti replacement was to be called FF, LdM states "Scaglietti is not for only one model. Its been an important name in the past, its an appropriate name for a 12-cylinder."

This sounds to me like there would be a range of 12 cylinder cars planned beyond the current FF and 599, even though tey've gone away from the Scaglietti name.

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/News/Search-Results/Industry-News/CAR-interviews-Ferrari-chairman-Luca-Di-Montezemolo/?content-block=1

Tifosi15 · Feb 23, 2011

ingegnere said: ↑

In this interview, before it was revealed that the Scaglietti replacement was to be called FF, LdM states "Scaglietti is not for only one model. Its been an important name in the past, its an appropriate name for a 12-cylinder."

This sounds to me like there would be a range of 12 cylinder cars planned beyond the current FF and 599, even though tey've gone away from the Scaglietti name.

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/News/Search-Results/Industry-News/CAR-interviews-Ferrari-chairman-Luca-Di-Montezemolo/?content-block=1
Click to expand...

Interesting, if there is indeed a series planned that would certainly make more sense for Ferrari's development into the 4 wheel drive system, as it wouldn't just be used in one car. I'm not sure what other market they would try and pursue, other than a droptop version that is.

DavidJames1 · Feb 24, 2011

Ferrarichat seems to me to be a place for Ferrari enthusiasts and we all have our views. I personally am happy with the direction Ferrari is taking and think the FF meets its brief very well. I really hope that the designers and people that push the envelope with the brand don't go along the lines of these boring variants that are neither one thing or the other. I would hate to see the FF diluted into a bunch of variants. I'm glad that Ferrari is taking a new direction.

I also disagree that the market is as limited as some think. It seems to me that this car is much more capable than a 612 from a performance point of view and it also appears to be more practical. I would think it opens up a larger market than the 612 managed to achieve.

Will put on my hard hat and duck below the parapet waiting for incoming!!

David

sambomydog · Feb 24, 2011

SouthernThunder said: ↑

Found this cool article
http://www.ferrari.com/English/Formula1/News/Interview/Pages/110218_F1_Piero_Ferrari_My_father_would_have_liked_the_FF.aspx
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Yes just read that, thanks for posting. Also watched the unveil video this morning were it was mentioned yet again that Piero Ferraris farther Enzo would have loved the FF.
I cant help but to think that Ferrari are trying hard to add credibility to this model by wheeling out Piero and a tale about his father's aproval.

MalibuGuy · Feb 24, 2011

PeterTremulis2011 said: ↑

I doubt I am the first person to see the FF as a strong candidate for Series variants. What interests me most is that Ferrari came out with a design that seems to shoot at a narrow niche play in a market that craves hyper design and hyper performance. While the performance is hyper based upon the published performance specifications offered by Ferrari to date, the body design seems to be aimed at the female which may have also been the intended target of the California. With the California though, the coupe to convertible metamorphasis offers both coupe and convertible buyers the best of both worlds in a package that looks and feels very Ferrari even if the original designs were in fact initially conceptualized by the Masserati design team. The FF in contrast is geared to a smaller target market and does not offer the versatility of the California since its a fixed roof four seater.

As to the FF-GT concept that my son Daniel designed, I offer it to Flavio as indication that the coupe version has strong potential and that it could be produced as a one off in time for the Mille Miglia if Pininfarina body fabricators are enlisted to produce this version for display purposes for that event. The GT version looks to me to be a "Heritage" version, perhaps a Fangio namesake is appropriate. Ferrari revealed a "Vintage" program recently that allows an owner to add bits and peices, most made of alloy, that when installed, evoke the Ferrari GT's of the late 50's and early 60's. So I think Ferrari is feeling the nostalia bug as have other automakers including Ford, GM and Chrysler with the re-introduction of musclecars based upon thier early successful 60's models.

If Flavio proceeds with some sketches of the FF-GT version and shares them with me, I will post them for Ferrarichat members to comment on. To me, Ferrarichat represents a great venue to solicit commentary as the members are Ferrari enthusiasts and owners and well informed and willing to share thier views, positive or negative. For a person in Flavio's position, he is expected to be the center of focus when it comes to design issues and his celebrity status bears that out. I am a member of his fan club on facebook and have posted there as well.

Social networking and email have dramatically improved the access to thought leaders in almost any industry, but certainly within the automobile industry. Again, I beleive Flavio considers constructive correspondance from Farrari fans as part of his territory, even if the public relations teams restrict his ability to communicate directly regarding the direction Ferrari plans to take the FF in the future.

Customizing Ferrari models, even brand new models, is well established and the revised roofline illustrated by the GT is a small modification by comparison to entire rebodied Ferrari's as has happend on numberous occasions in the past by Ferrari for thier best customers and by coachbuilders as well.
Click to expand...

I think that it is a bit premature to discuss changing a roofline on a car which has yet to be experienced by the public.

Be that as it may, I do think that Ferrari's FF roof is just fine as it is and is not in any need of change. Losing headroom for the rear seats and losing hatch cargo space is not an improvement. I think Ferrari's design is superior. No offense to your 18 yo sons enthusiasm and creative talents. Maybe he will be a car designer!

If I could change anything it would be to add some doors for the rear seats. Pininfarina and Ferrari could engineer a sliding door that would not detract from the beauty of the car.

Tifosi15 · Feb 24, 2011

MalibuGuy said: ↑

I think that it is a bit premature to discuss changing a roofline on a car which has yet to be experienced by the public.

Be that as it may, I do think that Ferrari's FF roof is just fine as it is and is not in any need of change. Losing headroom for the rear seats and losing hatch cargo space is not an improvement. I think Ferrari's design is superior. No offense to your 18 yo sons enthusiasm and creative talents. Maybe he will be a car designer!

If I could change anything it would be to add some doors for the rear seats. Pininfarina and Ferrari could engineer a sliding door that would not detract from the beauty of the car.
Click to expand...

For sure I think the design doesn't need to be changed and I echo those comments, including the enthusiasm of youth. However, for no reason whatsoever should a Ferrari of anykind have anywhere near 4 doors.

The FF I think showcases how you don't need 4 doors to have a do everything sort of car, plus the added doors would spoil the design IMO

RockyS18 · Feb 24, 2011

MalibuGuy said: ↑

If I could change anything it would be to add some doors for the rear seats. Pininfarina and Ferrari could engineer a sliding door that would not detract from the beauty of the car.
Click to expand...

A sliding door would be like a low-roofline Ferrari minivan. Yuck.

PeterTremulis2011 · Feb 24, 2011

Here is the Quattroporte version of the FF. Another stunner from Tremulis Design.
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MalibuGuy · Feb 25, 2011

RockyS18 said: ↑

A sliding door would be like a low-roofline Ferrari minivan. Yuck.
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No I agree no minivan.

I was thinking about a 14 inch very slim sliding half door panel without any handles just buttons to operate. This would enlarge the entrance to the rear seats.

Done the right way could be very cool.

PeterTremulis2011 · Feb 25, 2011

I agree that a half door would have been a great addition to the FF for the convience of the rear passengers.

Greg23 · Jun 4, 2012

The FF GT looks very interesting... Has a rear window like the Giulia TZ2! Keep this work up! Its very good quality!

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