308 V12 conversion begins | FerrariChat

308 V12 conversion begins

Discussion in '308/328' started by mk e, Oct 9, 2007.

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  1. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    12,899
    The twilight zone
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    The Butcher
    My patio is pretty much done and winter coming, so I'm aloud in the workshop again and my 308 V12 conversion is beginning...sort of.

    For those that missed it on the other thread, the plan is to take a 400i engine, fit it with TR heads, get it up to 550-600hp, and stuff the whole thing into my 308.

    The first problem I've run into so far is that even though my wife says I can work on the car (I know, I know....but just doing what I'm told makes life SOOO much better or from “the Italian job” – if there’s one thing I’ve learn, you don’t mess with (***) Ukrainians”) I can't spend any money doing it, so there is no budget :( My wife however does not have access to my ebay/paypal info though, so anything in those accounts is ferrari money. To that end, the QV engine is in parts and on ebay as I type, so go bid generously, it's for a good cause :) The qv heads are not listed yet, but will be out of the porting shop in a week or so ( I need to quit changing my mind about what I’m doing) and will be for sale then – these heads will let you make 320-350 naturally aspirated hp out of a QV/328 engine (depending on what all you do),and just plain obscene hp if you are planning boost as well - $4500 exchange, $6500 outright and remember, everything goes to a good cause.

    There is a set of complete (cams, covers, ect) TR heads in transit to me right now and the 400i should be on it's way very soon (now go bid generously so I can pay for it). I was thinking 412 because it’s 100cc bigger, but the 400 turned up at a good price, so 400 it is.

    Another F-chatter asked about whether the 365 (DOHC)/400/400i/412 engine can be installed in a 308 which is what started this whole thing, so the first order of business will be to see what is required to get the engine in the car. The 330/365 SOHC engines have been used, but are quite pricey these days where the 400/412 engines are about the same as a 308 engine. I’ll be making drawings of all the parts as I go, so a conversion kit can be put together for anyone else foolish enough to consider it.

    Pictures and updates will follow as things progress.
     
  2. 412monzaindy

    412monzaindy Formula Junior

    Mar 8, 2005
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    Ontario Canada
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    PBI
    My question is, why not the 456 motor. In know it seems higher in measurements, but I don't see why it can't be used.

    You could convert it to carbs, have at least 420+ HP right off the bat. It has the 4V heads, dry sump, etc.

    This is what I have been thinking and documenting for a while.
     
  3. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 29, 2006
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    Tim Keseluk
    Big Bucks.
     
  4. Pizzaman Chris

    Pizzaman Chris F1 Rookie

    Mar 13, 2005
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    Mark, sir, you are a Mad man. :)


    Hope the project works out for you.


    Chris
     
  5. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    The cost is first on my list, I can't afford one. The next thing would be the size of the thing, the valve covers are about 2" longer I'm told....that seems like a problem.

    There's no need to convert to cars though, there are a number of aftermarket ECUs that will run the engine and cost less and work better than the carb conversion would. I will be running EFI with 12 individual throttle bodies on the 400 engine.
     
  6. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 26, 2001
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    I cant wait to see how the shortblock designed for chains works with belt driven heads.
     
  7. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
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    Tom
    WOW!! Finaly something exciting! I will be following this very closely. Hats off to you sir!!
     
  8. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
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    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Steve Magnusson
    +1 -- I'm envious that I'm not working on a project like this.

    (Paul -- do you ALWAYS have to be so negative! We know that you are probably right, but this project needs positive mojo!)
     
  9. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Dec 26, 2001
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    Whats negative about my interest? lol, you know as well as I do there will be some serious machining and fabrication to make that combo work before the engine even gets close to the engine bay. Anything is possible its just a question of budget.
     
  10. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

    Oct 19, 2001
    16,078
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    This is a really cool project! I'm surprised the TR head fits the 400 block. In fact I'm surprised the thing will even fit in a 308 engine bay! But I have a hunch you've done your homework. What are you going to do about cooling this thing in a super tight space with a radiator designed for a lot less cylinders and HP?

    Ken
     
  11. racespecferrari

    racespecferrari F1 Veteran

    Jan 31, 2006
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    Pete.G By The Sea
    Great project Mark, I bet this will be one of the most popular threads.
     
  12. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    None it appears to want to fit together very well, but I’m pretty stubborn and have a sawsall, torch, tig and mig welders, milling machine, lathe and assorted other fab tools at home and I’m not afraid to use them :) I also have access to CNCs, wire and plunge EDMs at work. It’ll all go, it’s just a question of how much time it takes.

    The 400 heads are the same bore spacing and bolt pattern as the TR, so there is hope, but I don't think it's been tried before and I have no idea about water and oil passages. I’m hoping the Ferrari engineers were as lazy as me and just used what they already had, they did it with the bore and bolts......if not they weld shut and drill pretty easily

    The fall back plan is to stick with the 400 heads….but they don’t flow very well so I’d need a supercharger to hit the hp goal…..unless I use the welder and mill to relocate the intake ports to the inside of the Vee where they belong….but that is a lot of work.

    I upgraded the cooling system a few years ago to handle the 520-540 hp supercharged QV engine that I took out. So that part of the project is already done.
     
  13. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3

    Jun 21, 2007
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    Will Tomkins
    "The fall back plan is to stick with the 400 heads….but they don’t flow very well so I’d need a supercharger to hit the hp goal…..unless I use the welder and mill to relocate the intake ports to the inside of the Vee where they belong….but that is a lot of work."

    Robert Wilson (UK) is building an exact copy P4 except it has a 400 engine and ZF gearbox.
    He has fitted slide injection between the cams (ie in the standard position).
    They have done extensive port development and have got the heads flowing well over 500bhp (it's a while since he told me the exact figure which I've forgotten), so I wouldn't give up on those heads so easily. If you want me to find out more I can do so.
    I believe dry sumping and good scrapers will unlock you more hp too.
     
    AUSWOODS likes this.
  14. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3

    Jun 21, 2007
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    Don't forget you can go up to at least the 412 bore size too.
    Actually I've got a surplus set of new 412 pistons if you're interested. They're beautiful Mahle forged slippers, but maybe not high enough CR (?)
     
  15. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    There are a couple problems with the 400/412 heads. One is the ports just plain point the wrong way, but maybe that can be over come....I'm surprised they were able to get that much air throught them. I'm wondering how much cam they're using??

    The second problem is that 365/400 carb arrangement has no cahange of fitting in a 308 engine bay....maybe with new intakes to use downdraft carbs, I can't see any possible way to use the side draft set-up.
     
  16. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    If I keep the 400 heads, I might be interested....but the TR heads will require a different shape dome on the piston.
     
  17. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
    Consultant Owner

    May 5, 2001
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    Verell Boaen
    GO, GO, GO...

    Unobtainium is contributing by sending PayPal for the SC intercooler system you just sent me...
     
  18. DavidDriver

    DavidDriver F1 Rookie

    May 9, 2006
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    #18 DavidDriver, Oct 9, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Mark,

    My hat is officially off to you!

    What a great project!
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  19. dinogt4guy

    dinogt4guy F1 Rookie

    Oct 31, 2004
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    This will be a great thread I must agree! Too bad I couldn't have snagged that supercheep GT4 and put a 400i V12 in it! Oh yea baby! Look out 360's!!!
     
  20. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3

    Jun 21, 2007
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    I've seen downdraft carbs on an Australian built engine I think somewhere on Fchat. It's not difficult to machine the cam covers and get straight ports to either carbs, throttlebodies, or a slide throttle. I seem to remember that the 400i covers might be better for this
     
  21. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Thank you. My wife didn't need to see any checks come to the house....because then it's patio furniture money :(

    Now the rest of you, there’s lots of 308 engine stuff up for auction and I’ll be listing more soon, so bid early and bid often, it’s all for a good cause :)

    My TR heads will be here next Wednesday. Tasman really thinks I don’t need them, so after I get the engine and do the first test fit, I’ll run the TR and 400 heads up to my buddy Vic’s flow bench for a quick flow test, inspect, advise, and planning session. I know 2 valve engines can and do make just as much hp as 4 valve engines in the bore/stroke ratio range we’re talking about here, but those 365/400/412 ports are just all wrong….we’ll see though.

    QV heads can be made to flow well enough to get about 42 hp per cylinder with stock (328) cams, I’ve got to believe the TR heads are similar which would yield just over 500 hp with similar mild cams…and it should be more because the 400 cylinders are bigger and will pull a little more vacuum. The bigger cylinders will also and tolerate more cam without losing low end which should push the number up to the mid to high 500s. I just don’t see the 400 heads being able to compete, but well see….I’ve been wrong before.
     
  22. P4Replica

    P4Replica Formula 3

    Nov 4, 2003
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    #22 P4Replica, Oct 10, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I hope you're not going to be too disappointed with the final result, Mark. Here's another example of a custom-built motor, using a 5-litre V-12 Batten billet alloy block; Rody crank; J&E pistons and Carillo rods - with TR heads, built by legendary motor guru, Bob Norwood ....
    .... which was 'reputed' to put out 600bhp. As seen on the dyno, prior to its sale in 2003 ? A 'mere' 363bhp at the rear wheels. :(
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  23. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Yeah....dynos really separate out the chaf pretty well and any claim that comes without a dyno sheet can't be taken very seriously. Bob really made his reputation with turbo systems and he's very good at them....but I don't think he ever owner a flow bench which is a must for naturally aspirated engine development. If he did, the intake system in the photos would be in the dumpster, it could just never feed 600(naturally aspirated)hp....never.

    I've got somewhat accurate engine simulation soft (once you get the inputs "right") and access to a couple other software packages and they all agree within a couple % that if the TR heads can match the QV heads for flow, I can build a 550+hp engine without crazy cams or redline. Now I just need to see if the TR heads (or better yet the 400 heads) can in fact match the flow of the flow of QV heads......
     
  24. James in Denver

    James in Denver Formula 3

    May 23, 2006
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    Mark,

    Do you already have a 400i engine?

    If not, there is a 5 speed 400i car on Ebay (located here in Colorado) that needs an engine rebuild. I havent seen the car and dont know the owner, but here's the ebay ad and thread about the car:
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ferrari-400i-5-speed-possible-parts-car_W0QQitemZ110176146549QQihZ001QQcategoryZ6212QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=137131673

    Since the engine needs a rebuild, this engine would be a good candidate AND you'd have a whole parts car left over. You may come out close or even ahead after selling the parts.

    Just a thought.

    PS Auction ends: Oct-10-07 22:44:58 PDT

    James in Denver
     
  25. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Thanks, but I have a 400i engine lined-up and waiting....now go bid on my autions so I can make this dream come true :)
     

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