Mondial T transmission noise (one more!)

Hello

After having sorted out the engine issues (discussed here before https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/worrying-engine-noise-mondial-t.540753/page-3), I am now having a look at the transmission noise I am having since I bought the car and which persisted after an oil change.

I am clearly hearing a noise coming from the gear stick, dependant on the engine speed but not on the gear or clutch. It can be heared in this video, but it is maybe not very clear.

(could not resist pushing it but at the end the noise coming from the gear stick was making me sick so it is sorn until sorted!)

I am almost done removing the gearbox from the engine in order to have a look at it by firstly opening all the covers and then decide what to do, if I DIY it or sent it to a specialist, but I am so afraid of paying huge amount of money for some botched work..

I have a few questions since I had a look at my thrust bearing assembly:

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It have an HE throw out bearing but it looks like I have the "old" flange. The distance between the springs on the TO is indeed 86mm. I haven't been able to measure it but I have the feeling it is narrower than it on the flange, so probably 82 (I don't know if a 86mm flange looking the same as the "old" exists?) .

According to HE, their TO bearing must be paired with an upgraded flange.. however I haven't seen any sign of damage resulting from a bad assembly with them... a part from the fact that I am missing both springs between the TO and the flange.. but I am very happy with the clutch..

Is there an issue with my TO/flange assembly?

Thanks

 

Hello

Thanks for your input.

I am asking this question since I understand my TOB and flange are not compatible (also seen here: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/144763892/ ).. in a kind of "while I am here"!

I had a tought about it but due to the sound intensity when revving the engine I tought I should just look at the gearbox. Do you think this cthe shifter could cause so much noise?

To be honest also I have read so many horrors stories about the 3.4 gearboxes that anyway I want to have a look at it.. Mine is a 89' with 53k miles also. but yes if the noise comes from the shifter it is not very smart!

 

Hello

So I finally removed the transmission after having some trouble with the trunk behind it (and also doing the timing on my other italian car..!).

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I haven't seen anything obvious through the front of the gearbox. I plan removing the front panel and the side panels to check if I see something strange.

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Could someone tell me which usual things should I look on this transmission, that could explain the noise I have?

What can be checked and replaced without opening all the box?

Due to all the bad things linked to this transmission, I don't want to risk anything!

I still don't know what I will do of this box, if I send it to a specialist or if I fancy DIY it, since I can get some good helps from friends.. will see!

Thanks

 

Hello

Thanks for your input.

I have read many times issue with this bearing indeed. I don't know if it the cause of the noise since it is dependant on engine speed and not car speed, and I think you are talking about the mainshaft bearing? Was your noise dependant on the car speed?

Anyway, I think I will replace them since even if it is just precautionary...!

I have removed the first cover of the oil pump side:

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There are some aluminium and what looks like brass bits in the filter (which is quite bent by the way).


I guess I am not in the "show me your ring nut" club!

Layshaft:
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Mainshaft: (it looks like I have loctite?)

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The staking on the mainshaft looks light but I don't know if it is loose or not.

I don't know if the fact there is no white seal means it has already been opened? (I had his white seal on the engine/gearbox interface).


Does it look like wear on the mainshaft bearing balls?

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I will open the other side cover and the front one and I will have to wait to get a ring nut tool to remove the second cover on the oil pump side. Could someone give me the reference of the tool I should buy? (Hill Engineering looks to be the place to get them?)

Thanks

 

Hello

I have seen some threads here dealing with failed side bearings and I think mine are a little shot also since the balls are not very nice, they look like in this topic I guess: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/138049959/

And mine are the new SKF reference which means it has already been replaced...!

View of my layshaft bearing:
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I have opened the front cover and had a look at most of the gears (I think all of them excepted the clutchshaft/pinion set).

I have only seen very small cut on a few teeth on the mainshaft to differential gear.
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I don't feel any axial play anywhere and there is a minor play when rotating the clutchshaft but the only way to know if it is the normal backlash or not is to remove it.. I think I have read all the transmission threads over here, looks fairly simple, clutch shaft and/or side bearings...!!! Is it true or are there others weak bearings?

Obviously I hope my whine comes from the bearings...

Regarding the aluminium bits in the filter, do you think it could come from the plug at the other end of the layshaft that can come loose and may be rubbing against the cover? I haven't removed it yet.

I start thinking at the removal of the clutchshaft, I am thinking at the following questions:
-when pulling the clutchshaft, does the input shaft also come?
-is it too tight to hammer it back or is it better to press it?
-according to what I see, one can change only the bearing and not the bearing+enveloppe assembly (damn expensive!!), is it correct? (part 12 https://www.ricambiamerica.com/car-diagrams/ferrari/v6-v8/mondial-group/mondial-t/clutch-and-controls.html?mode=split )
-is the clutchshaft ring nut the same dimension as the lay/mainshaft ones?

I will try to get make a screw extractor and with some heat it should be fine..

Thanks

 

Hello

For me it is only bad photo but I will have a look at it again.

Well I tried to extract the clutch shaft using a bolt extractor I assembled and some heat.

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However, I am not able to make if move at all.. I think I am already some amount of preaload in the extractor but I am not able to heat the surrounding of the bearing at more than 50°c, the heat is always going in the casing.. I think my torch is not powerful enough..

Which type of torch would you recommend me to use?

Thanks

 

Hello

I have finally managed to remove the clutch shaft by using a gas radiant allowing to heat all the transmission quite a lot.

Here are some pictures:

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I cannot see anything anormal on the clutchshaft and inside the transmission. All looks fine.

There is not play between the clutchshaft gear and shaft and the ring nut looks still properly stacked. However, I have not remove it yet since I have to buy a socket.

To the guys who had issue with the clutch shaft, were you able to see/feel something before removing the ring nut?

Since all looks fine, I plan to change the bearing and the needle bearing for the clutch and input shaft inside the box, as well as the two bearing on the oil pump side.

Regarding the needle bearings (for input and clutch shaft), could you please confirm me that they can both be removed by the clutch side?

It looks like the clutch shaft needle bearing 138340 has been replaced by 131050. Should I indeed get the 131050?


Thank you

 

Hello

Thanks

Yes I try to do it smartly and doing some custom things when possible..

Yes you are right. I am keeping in mind these flakes..
However the thing is that I don't really know what to do more without dismantling everything..!

I am doing this with a friend mechanic who has a better eye than me regarding gears and things like that. From what he has seen he says it is really OK. Will have to check more carefully for play in the box in a few days.
However, I don't want to go into a full gearbox teardown since I don't feel confident enough regarding knowledge and tools.
Then, what more can I check in order to ensure that I don't miss anything?
I will open the passenger side cover since I read about a plug at the end of a shaft undoing and rubbing against the casing...

I have checked the input shaft cylindricity and came with a run out of almost 0.1mm, figure which looks quite high for me. Does anyone have a value of their own input shaft to compare with?

Thanks

 

Hello

Yes.

I have removed the gear on the clutch shaft and the splines are perfect.
I have removed the passenger side cover and the plug at the end of the shaft is still tight. The roller bearing are fine.

Regarding the famous dual ball bearing on the other side, they look fine... Only normal wear according to what I have been told on the races.

In fact, I am now sure my transmission has been rebuilt, since the roller bearing are not the standard one (replaced with brass cages on mine) and I already remarked that the dual ball bearing were replaced.

When having a look with my mechanic, we were not able to see anything anormal regarding gears, play or synchro.

I will have a last look with him and an endoscope this week end but I don't see what to do apart from starting to put it back together.


On one side I am happy to see that my gearbox is fine regarding all the commun issues and hoping that it may just be a cable adjustement, on the other side I am fearing to miss the big issue!!

By the way I am looking for a gearbox oil filter since mine is bent.. If anyone has one for sale, PM!

Some pictures:

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Hello

I am having a hard time trying to remove the bearing retainer ring 47:


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I have removed bigger one (50) and the big needle bearing (49) but I am stuck on the 47. It doesn't move at all and I don't have a lot of grip to try to remove it.
Does anyone here have some tricks about this?

Thanks