Clutch Started to Slip....sooo

Terry,

When I did this job for my buddy I changed the thrust bearing to a brand new Hill Engineering unit, it's expensive but worth it in the long run. At least he never have to worry about it going bad. I figured next time I will just change the seals and reuse the thrust bearing. The stock thrust bearing was making slight noise when turned by hand and I can feel the friction of the bearing.

I heard there is an independent shop in Huntington Beach, CA that relines the factory clutch with the same Valeo material. I've communicates with the Valeo factory rep. to their knowledge they don't sell the clutch material. So still searching for vendor option on that one, if anyone else know of any place that can do a reline...
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+1

The only way to get any high friction uprated clutch to work well would be to modify the program/data in the TCU itself. This is way beyond the scope of most people, only a handful of people can do it, they simply don't have the knowledge to modify/patch 680x0 assembly language hex codes for different timings associated with take up.

I'm convinced this is the reason why Ferrari themselves made such a mess up with the L.C. (Launch Control) on the CS. Use L.C. button on the Euro Strad's just a few times and the clutch is history! My assumption is that the team probably originally planned to use an even more uprated clutch with higher friction coefficient (like the one above) but bawked at the price quoted by Magneti Maranelli for the re-programming required to get it working.

Furthermore with this offering (its very obvious they didn't test it properly on the car) I'd equally be concerned (write or wrongly) about the balancing of the flywheel as most machined flywheels I've seen where massively out of balance which itself could cause big very expensive problems in itself!

 

We have to warranty the work so it has to be trouble free and reliable. Every time we get involved in getting someone to rebuild, reline or whatever a part or component it winds up costing me money. With a very few exceptions we use Ferrari parts. I keep an eye on what many other shops with similar standards do and all that does is reinforce my policy.


I am often amused by some of the mods I see done here. Having done many of them myself all I can say is there are a lot of people out there that must not have a good idea how these cars are supposed to be when they are correct.

 

Makes perfect sense to me. I would like to ask, however, if you would use the Hill Eng. bearing instead of the OEM Ferrari part (or, in another example, the HE tensioners)?

 

Brian- Thanks. Kind of what I expected. Some things sound like such a good idea, but are not.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Brian- One other question. I seem to remember you saying you had trouble with the HE throw-out bearing on F1 360s. Their tensioners are really superior quality, but I believe you said you use Ferrari throw-out bearings. True or not? Kind of moot for me, since they do not make a T/O bearing for the F1 575, but others might learn from it.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

There's some guys in Van Nuys I believe that absolutely swear by the kevlar clutches for Lambos, especially the E-gear (partly because the cost is substantially less). None of the Lambo guys seem to complain, perhaps the E-gear system is just crude enough that the decrease in smoothness really isn't noticeable.

Perhaps if you just smash the throttle to the floor every time the result will be more satisfactory.

If I recall correctly, the Ferrari T/O has undergone a couple of revisions. The early 355 ones suffered from regular bearing failure. I know in the Maserati it is rarely recommended to replace the T/O with the clutch as they're not problematic.

 

I think you are referring to Famous Autosports by Mitch Sanders http://famousautosports.com/

You are correct regarding the kevlar clutch, it does bite a lot stronger, if you really step on it the clutch would grab right away and the rear wheel will chirp. But you can hardly live with a car like that especially stuck in traffic. I would imagine a track only use car would be ok.

 

Expecting any F1 throw out bearing to last 2 clutches is like not doing your homework because you are going to get an NBA contract.

 

There are some exceptions. We have had failures of Ferrari tensioner bearings. We changed to Hill on many but not all cars.

I use many Hill TO bearings. In the 360 we have never had a failure of a factory bearing. I did have a problem with a Hill bearing in a 360 F1 car. Had to do the job twice and it cost me money instead of making me money. Since there is no problem to fix with the factory bearing we went back to it. My level of tolerance for premature failure is once.

We use what is proven to be best. Not what some guy says is better, not what looks prettier...........Best
Period.

 

I understand your point very well.

In all fairness due to manufacturing tolerances and the law of averages [dare I say it even fitting] there could always be a certain % of failures in any product, regardless of who made it. Whether your using the contracted out vendor parts that Ferrari recommended or HE, or anyone else.

You may have just been unlucky, once its a little bit harsh. I know HE products are very high quality with very good reputation for good reasons [many, myself included insist on them as replacement on 360/430 weak ball joints for example].

 

Trev,

I too also had a thrust bearing failure made by HE, it was the first thrust bearing I purchased from Ricambi and Daniel promptly replaced it for me. It arrived DOA not as a bearing failure but probably during assembly. The metal cramp was cracked out of the box, luckily I checked the part very carefully and caught it before it was installed in the car. With that said I would still order another HE product in a heartbeat.
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I agree but,

I have had zero failures with Ferrari 360 TO bearings. Between my old dealer and my current shop that could well be 1000 bearings.

I installed maybe 2 or 3 of the aftermarket bearings and one caused a non resolveable computer error. By the time it was all said and done I spent about 25 uncompensated hours resolving the issue. Considering my relative experience to continue to take those chances would be stupid. No well run business no matter how large or small would look at that scenario and make any other decision.


And as far as ball joints are concerned they are the same brand Ferrari uses so there is little risk.

I know Paul makes high quality parts, so does Ferrari but it is very simple, if it ain't broke, dont fix it.

 

My remark was a generalization as opposed to being specific to F1's, which I realize wasn't the point of this particular topic so point taken.

Regardless I've had customers out right refuse to spend the money so I've replaced the seals and re-installed the T/O with the understanding that the customer chose not to replace the item and was not warrantied by me in any way. I've yet to have to re-do one as of now, not saying it's written in stone but I'm glad.

The F1 system is to complicated enough to guarantee one thing; there's no way to predict how a car is going to respond. You'll always be taking a risk no matter how good the quality.

I prefer not to deal with an extra variable personally.

 

Brian that exactly happened to me with a Hill TB. When I performed my first clutch I used that part and when I finished it start to leak like crazy. I call my good friend Patrick from Ferrparts and he sent me the original part. I like to take my time assembly the seals on the OEM one by one but I’m making sure it is perfect. I did used the HI bearings for the belts without problems. Here are some pictures I took.
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And you will learn that when you do the job the customers way, the way you know is wrong, when it goes bad, he will be pissed. He will be even more pissed when you do not fix it for free and you will be bad mouthed. Your reputation cannot take that and should not have to. I have a very simple rule, do the job the way I can guarantee my work or take it somewhere else and no hard feelings.

Don't let a cheap customer cause your reputation to take a hit. Believe me, no one says "My car broke down because I was cheap. It wasn't my mechanics fault".

 

Good thread. Learned a bunch about clutches and T/O bearings. Thanks.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Good point Brian. Atleast if they don't like the price they can't knock the service, I'd rather be right than cheap as well.

HE says they use a SKF bearing, I thought SKF was what Ferrari generally used as well.

 

I agree with Brian. You never get what you don't pay for. If you want cheap don't by a Ferrari. It's fun but it's not cheap.

 

Hi Jim,

Long time no see. Still have your 430? What other toys have you bought recently?

 

where's vivid on this ... what's the update?