512 TR starter issue

Many (US) TR and 512TR Owners (including myself) have reported better hot starting behavior with a WAI (was Ace Electric) solenoid. If you search on:

WAI Ace Electric

you should get a few threads on the subject and the WAI part number for your 512TR..

 

I know that this has been asked before - but- Does the starter have to come off to replace the solonoid in the TR? Thanks in advance.

 

I don't know if it absolutely "has to come off", but IMO it is much easier to remove the whole starter assembly and replace the solenoid on the bench (especially if the solenoid mounting screws decide to be "difficult") -- also gives you a chance to lubricate/check the pinion gear sliding action.

 

Steve
Many thanks for the help. And thanks for helping so many F Chatters in the past. It is great to have you on this forum.

 

Thanks Zen for the advice - I've been concerned about this problem for some time on my 512tr, and I have heard that it is common to this model. I will make the reparations as you indicate and hopefully won't have any more of those embarrasing "click-click" noises when I have a crowd of people around my car...

 

DISCONNECT your battery....

Guido

 

Second thing to do: Make a sketch of the wire connections. There maybe a small diameter wire connected on the same terminal connected to the battery that powers something on the passenger
side forward of the motor. I forget the color code but it is not listed in the two different schematics that I have. Thanks for this repair......I wonder how many owners have paid for a new starter
when this repair would have fixed the problem?

Jeff Pintler
89 342tb, 86tr

 

This is a super easy fix.. Pick up a solonoid from WIA.. take the starter off and change it over.. You may have to change some connectors but it is no biggy and the fix should be the last time you will have to do it.. unless of course your starter motor goes.. Total cost.. $20.00 - can't beat that.

R

 

I did the repair as you outlined and it seems to work fine. I think part of the problem is with the small wire coming from the ignition. The solenoid draws quite a high current and the voltage drop could be such that it impedes the proper action of the solenoid. The reason I suspect this is because when I completed the repair and first tried to start it, it would not start. I then shorted the battery connection to the ignition terminal with a scewdriver and the solenoid worked fine. After doing this, I tried it with the ignition switch several times and it worked fine each time.

It may be better to put in a relay at or near the solenoid. The ignition wire would energize the coil of the relay, (the other side of the relay goes to ground) and the relay contact would be connected across the battery connection and the ignition terminal on the solenoid. Make sure you connect the relay in a NO (normally open) manner...i.e the contact is open when the relay is de-energized.

If I experience problems in the future, this is what I will do. Meantime, I will always keep a small screwdriver handy in the car...

By the way, on my solenoid, there is another spade terminal that is unused and there's no wire in the car to connect to it. Does anyone know what this is for?

 

Sometimes the extra terminal is energized for other circuits elsewhere in the chasis while the starter is spinning. Porsches have this feature on their starters. For fun you could connect a digital volt meter to the terminal and chasis ground and monitor the voltage when someone cranks over the motor.

Jeff Pintler
89 348tb, 86tr

 

The previous owner of my TR did the "piston" fix and I haven't had a problem since.

 

Good advice.One more confirmation for the piston or plunger problem. I removed the plunger and took a dremel to it. Removed some material and polished it to a chrome look. The hot start problem seems to have stopped.

 

For those who might stumble across this older post via a web search, I took the same "piston fix" approach and documented it with lots of photos on my blog:

DIY: Fix a Ferrari Testarossa / 512 TR Hot Start Problem - SteveJenkins.com

 

this was a rather large problem here in California as I seem to recall...people have to remember that Monroni was 192K in '92, heavy tissue in those days for a car....

That said, repeated little fixes were not cutting it(California has likely the MOST rigorous consumer protection laws in the Union), the point being: I'm nearly CERTAIN of a TSB-possibly only a CA issued(?), pertaining to 512TR starters as stated by OP...

There is a REPLACEMENT p/n and un it-I'm nearly certain it was a Japanese mfg. part(Nippondenso?), and minor instructions with-as I recall 25 years later-a single attachment bolt, washer and nut...{hex cap???}.

All the other stuff about harnesses, and grounds, etc, yadda, yadda, yadda, are superfluous to the inadequacies of the original part....the job paid like .3 of an hr. on a warranty claim...

the MORAL of this story is-there was NEVER, ever, any customer complaint relating to this from that car or owner again...AFTER TSB mod performed.

I last did this with what was the "last NOS stocked replacement part in stock" about 1998 (at the time), and remember the other few cars done at this agency also never had a problem again...
I cant remember the TSB number and or the p/n, but am certain of having done this 3-4 times back in this era...
FWIW-it looked much like these "hi torque" modern ones being hawked at Daytona and earlier vintage owners-just not certain how close they might actually be to one another...its almost 25 yrs ago after all...

 

I realize I'm really reaching here since your post goes back several years BUT, is your offer still good? If so I will ship accordingly, Thank you

 

We see this on a regular basis and ever time has been a voltage drop on the control wire from ignition switch through the fuse box to the starter relay. we typically see a 2-4 volt drop in the fuse box. Bypassing the fuse box or rebuilding the fuse box resolves the issue. 8-10 volts will properly engage the solenoid cold but the hotter you make the coil in the solenoid the weaker it becomes. Combine that with low voltage and the solenoid will not close hard enough to close the high current contacts.

 

This has been a valuable set of contributions. On an intermittent basis I am seeing 5v on the spade at the solenoid when trying to start the car. I’ve serviced the starter and solenoid to no avail so my thinking is it’s the fuse board being problematic. This is backed up by having no power to the LH rad fan, which i resolved via a relay bypass.

I have a 92 UK 512TR. Is there a relay on the fuse board that forms part of the ignition feed to the solenoid? I was hoping to bypass the failure point rather than rebuild or buy an alt fuse board at this point but I need help finding the relay or wire on the board please. Here’s the board and don’t laugh at my fan relay bypass as it’s just temporary, honest.

Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

No relay between the key and the starter (assuming you haven't got some kind of immobiliser in the circuit). The starter wire going from the key to the starter via the relay panel is white and can be found on relay panel plug I (in) and F (out). Pin 1 on both plugs.

Image Unavailable, Please Login

You can see those wires in your photo.

Image Unavailable, Please Login

Check the plugs for security/melting/pin corrosion.

If you disconnect the small wire on the starter to stop it cranking, use a voltmeter to check for full battery voltage at these plugs during (attempted) cranking .

There is a relay involved in the start circuit (relay S), but that is to deactivate the coil of relay S during start, to help start the car.

If you jumper the wire between the two relay panel plugs, you may get extra power to the starter, but leave the old wiring in place as relay S won't function.

The starter wiring does go through plug 41019 in the engine bay (under the left hand intake ducting). You could also inspect that for signs of stress/corrosion.

Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Skills. I’ll check this out over this week. Thank you very much indeed.

 

Hello all. I found the drop in voltage was on the ignition input to the fuse board. Upstream I have an aged autowatch immobiliser and central locking unit which was hacked into the white ignition wire. For now i’ve jumped from the spliced ignition wire to the fuse board input. Time will tell but it’s a temp fix. It’s major service time with belts change this week. When it’s back I’ll see what can be done about this autowatch.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

I have further hacking and splicing on wires at the board and i’m keen to try and improve so as less likely to be problematic. Is there a diagram or reference for all inputs and outputs on the 512tr fuse board?

Cheers, Craig.
Image Unavailable, Please Login