Power brake bleeder

Gary hi,
Pressure bleeders are realy good on brake/clutch system's been useing one for many year's on all kind's,we use an electric machine just help's the workshop flow better,but for home use Maranelloman is spot on pump types are just the job,

cheers
Dale.

 

Hi Gary,
Visit www.griotsgarage.com for your brake bleeder. They specialize in marketing, in my opinion, the finest car care products available.
Best regards

 

I just bought one from motive products, but am still getting conflicting reports from people on this board and my mechanic (whom i really do trust) about changing brake fluid on a 360 without an SD-2 unit. According to the mechanic (Ferrari factory trained, authorized factory dealership), without the SD-2 you can't get all the ABS valves open at the right time, even if you turn the key to the "2" position and the pumps click on.

Another dealer said it was possible to do without the SD-2, but if you made any mistakes you could really screw up the brake system with air in the lines. Last thing I need is braking for Big Bend at Lime Rock and having no brake pressure.

Interesting fact: 360CH cars start their ABS pumps when you open the door (it has a sensor). This gives them time to pressurize before you flip the ignition switch. Battery master switch must be on.

 

The SD-2 is Ferari's diagnostic and programming computer. It is different than an OBDII in that it can upload instructions to the various ECUs and allows a wide range of programming options. It diagnoses and can change just about every function on your car, from engine to transmission, brakes, clutch, etc. It also apparently controls the ABS and ASR circuit valves allowing them to open and close at the right moment when doing a brake flush so no air gets in.

The 550's have their own program specific to the car loaded into the SD-2. Your mechanic (if he is an authorized Ferrari guy) will have an SD-2. If you ever see any warning lights come on the SD-2 will diagnose the problem and clear the warning. They are now available to the general public as the result of Ferrari losing a lawsuit to keep them from us, but at $20,000 each only dealers can afford them (for the most part). Ferrari will shortly unveil the SD-3.

 

Does the POWER BLEEDER PRO have ALL the necessary bits for a 1985 308GTS QV?

 

I've seen the Motive unit at lots of mail-order places (iap, etc), but for the (cheap) DIYers: http://www.bmw-m.net/TechProc/bleeder.htm.

The pressure tank and fluid reservoir are fairly easy to accomplish in many ways. The tricky bit is coming up with a cap to fit the brake reservoir. I found that a "Centrum" vitamin cap is the right size for the 328, but the @#$% childproof cap leaks air like crazy.

 

This is the machine we use guys
http://www.liquid-levers.com/sbb.htm
Given many years of good service and use it quite a lot,
there are hand pump types on the web site to very well made machines and i dont know or work for these guys,

cheers
Dale.

 

Yeah, I've spent my fair share of $ there, and I agree about the quality of most of their offerings. Yet, SOME things are priced double what you'll find through other distributors, other items are priced the same. Example, "Blitz" products polymer drive-up ramps: Griots, $49.95, Local auto parts store, $19.95 on sale. Snap-on, Mac, Matco, Cornwell, Facom, etc., may offer the same for less $. Shop around. (Harbor Freight: mostly lower quality/low use tools)

 

Whoops-made a mistake. The 360CH ABS pumps do not come on line when you open the door. The F-1 pump does. Found out the hard way (not too hard) at the track today that you MUST use an SD-2 unit to properly bleed all 360 brake lines (Modenas, Spiders). You can flush system and bleed brakes the old fashioned way, but the fluid in the ABS/ASR systems does not get replaced that way, and any air/moisture remaining in these systems then contaminates all the new fluid you just put in.

I watched while the SD-2 unit went through its routine of opening and closing valves while one mechanic pumped the brake pedal and a second guy manually opened and closed bleeder screws. Turning the key to the #2 position also does not work for 360's, although it does work for 355's. I'm not sure about the 550/575 or 456/612 series, although I would guess that if they are SD-2 based they work in a similar way.

So a brake fluid change or bleed must be done with the SD-2 unit on all 360's. No way around it. Anyone want a brand new pressure bleeder?

 

A few comments....

1. The Motive power bleeder is fantastic. IMHO, a positive pressure bleeder works better than a negative pressure "suction" (at the nipple) device (insert your own joke here). It's simple, easy, and fast. No need to recruit your spouse or buddy to pump pedals. Make bleeding/flushing fluid a 20 minute job (7-8 minutes if you don't count jacking and wheel removal/installation). Most of my fellow track rats in the BMW & Porsche world use the Motive device, and most of us bought them for ~$50.

2. Steven, I think the most popular version of the Motive comes with the brake reservoir cap fitment that fits the European standard. I'm fairly sure that it will fit your 308. If you're not positive, borrow a friend's 355 or BMW or Porsche cap on your next drive, and see if it screws onto yours. If it does, the standard Motive cap will work.

3. Solly, you CAN change the brake fluid on your 360CH without using an SD2. (This is all as was explained to me when I explored the situation for doing it on my wife's 996, so take my advice with a grain of salt, but it should be the same).

It is better if you have access to an SD2, but it's not mandatory. The ABS pump doesn't hold a lot of fluid. If you change the fluid without an SD2, it means the "old" fluid stays in the ABS pump; when you hit the ABS while braking, the old fluid gets circulated into the system. So, what's the ratio of old to new fluid? 1:5? 1:10? 1:20? If you're really, really retentive, you could change the fluid, bomb around and trigger the ABS a few times, then flush the fluid again (only $10 for fluid, right?).

I, and lots of my fellow track rats, change brake fluid on cars with modern ABS systems without cycling the ABS - the "old" fluid in the pump gets mixed in and doesn't make any noticeable difference.

And keep in mind, of course the dealer is going to tell you that you need the SD2 to change the fluid. They want your business right? And it's not dishonest; the SD2 *does* make the fluid change more thorough, and it's probably what the factory recommends, but I certainly wouldn't fell bad about doing it myself.

Just my $.02, and, as always, I could be completely wrong about this.

 

I am also factory trained on many Ferrari's including the 360. I have the Motive brake bleeder designed for the European cars, it fits perfectly and works great. I now have an independant shop and own an SD2, so some of us do have them and I don't bother using it for brake fluid changes because the fluid left in the ABS unit is insignificant. As said before by others, that is said largely either from ignorance or as a sales pitch. Any time you change any fluid in your car some percentage is left behind. You should be changing it at an interval that takes that into account and that is exactly what the recommended intervals do.

 

1. Instead of just "bleeding" the brakes, I flush the fluid each time. Fresh fluid only costs me ~$8, as I bought a case, so if I'm going to the effort of bleeding, I may as well just change the fluid. On my 355, it's really quite simple. Put new fluid in Motive bleeder, attach to reservoir. Pump up Motive to proper pressure. Jack the car up, starting with the right rear. Remove tire, attach hose to outer bleeder nipple. Crack open bleeder nipple, watch fluid drain into empty bottle. Wait until you see fresh fluid. Close nipple. Repeat for inner bleeder nipple. Reinstall wheel, then repeat as follows: LR, RF, LF. Voila! Also bleed clutch if you want (nipple is under rear, near center of rear bumper).

Dunno how much dealer charges. If I do it in my driveway, takes about 20 minutes.

2. I change pads when I need to - I do a LOT of track events, and check the pads every morning of each event, and when I do a pre-tech. I use Performance Friction PFC-97 pads, and they typically last me 15+ track days, easily, with thousands of street miles in between. I usually get them for ~$100 a set (per axle; two sets for all four wheels). And I do brake VERY hard; I usually outbrake most other cars in my run group (instructor or advanced). Rotors are stock brembo (ventilated, but not drilled or slotted), and they usually last me a couple of years, at least (30+ track days? More?). I threw up when I ordered a set from Algar a couple of years ago, ~$730. WOW. I checked around, and ordered a set from a Brembo dealer for $200 apiece. Hehe. Same exact rotor, no fancy yellow box. Changing the pads is very easy on the 355. Someone else just posted detailed instructions on changing pads, should be only a few additional minutes per wheel in addition to bleeding brakes. Changing rotors involved detaching the calipers, so add a few minutes on top of that. I haven't turned the rotors when I've changed the pads, and haven't had any problems - there is some debate as to whether turning the rotors helps or hurts; I haven't bothered, and my pads work fine and the rotors last.

Dunno how much the dealer charges. Anyone who can change his/her own oil can probably do the brake work in the driveway.

Hope this helps!

vty,

--Dennis

 

I have not yet used the Motive bleeder I ordered for the 360CH, but all the comments here make sense. Since I completely flush the entire brake system after every 10 hours of track time (along with motor oil), the amount left in the ABS really is not significant. I was told that when using a pressure bleeder 22-24 PSI is optimum.

Can anyone post a source or link for rotors? I have been using Ferodo DS3000 Plus pads for track, and they are excellent. $280 per set instead of Ferrari's $520 per set. I just changed the rotors after 2 years, as they had warped. They are slotted and directionally finned, and again are 50% of Ferrari cost, but I just cannot remember who we bought them from originally.

 

Steven,
The European Power Bleeder ($47.95 )has everything you need. The 3x8s all use the #1100 adapter. The Pro does have it, plus a bunch of adapters you don't need for your 308.

With either of them, you'll also need a foot or so of plastic tubing to fit over the bleed nipple to drain the old fluid into a container instead of spilling out onto the caliper.
A wrench to loosen the bleed fitting.
A telescoping rod to lock the brake pedal partway down so the master cylinder valves are in flow-tru position.
Brake fluid

The Haynes brake repair manual would be useful to you also.

I made my own power bleeder, bought the #1100 adapter kit for $15, + LT Flowmaster #1998 hand sprayer for $6 or $7. Doesn't have a gauge, but actual pressure isn't important, just need enough to keep the fluid flowing.

 

An old, worn out rear hatch strut works well for this ... along with a block of shipping foam to protect the front of the seat.

Also, you can pick up an inline pressure gauge at WalMart.

 

Just came across a inexpensive brake bleeder in a Harbor Freight catalog:
# 92924-08VA $ 29.95.

Think it's a pressure bleeder, but don't have a good description because it's new, not yet on their web site yet.

Don't know how it compares with my $21.00 system which works just wonderful (See my post below for details.).

 

I own this unit and it is not a pressure bleeder. It uses vacuum created by a compressor hookup. They give you a bottle with adapters that you invert on top of the reservoir that feeds fluid by gravity. I could not get a good result with this since the rubber fitting that goes over the caliper nipple leaks air so the bubbles in the hose never go away.

I just ordered the Motive EUROPEAN POWER BLEEDER for my 308. When adding fluid to the reservoir recently, I noticed lots of debris suspended in the reservoir and a layer of crud on the bottom. Obviously, I want to clean all this out. What's the best way to do this? Thanks.

 

Hi Rifledriver,
Your help and comments have been golden to me as I went thru the front wheel bearings servicing on my 328 GTB (ABS) last month. Thanks again. If I may, I would appreciate your expertise on another matter. I just flushed the brake fluid using a Motive brake bleeder (was "apparently" done by Ferrari dealership - spring 2021 according to invoice...Humm...). When I look (vertically) at the brake fluid reservoir (with surrounding fiberglass cover removed), I can see nice and clear new fluid down to the bottom of the main body of the reservoir but I noticed that some darker fluid remained trapped in the lower "bowl" shaped (right) bottom extension of the reservoir where the hose going to the ABS pump is connected...

I have read a few threads here on methods to flush the ABS portion of the system. Some say that a scan tool can be used to activate the ABS system valving to ensure a proper flush? Obviously, if that is the case, my Ferrari dealership didn't know it or do it? Another procedure using the ABS pump by leaving the key in the "on" position while flushing out some fluid at the rear callipers with someone applying the brakes sounds logic and probably right to get the fluid trapped in the ABS portion of the system flushed out? So, I do I get rid of that pocket of stale fluid? Your answer would be appreciated because I know it would be the right one. Cheers!

 

Unless you disassemble the entire brake system, the engine, the transmission and clean every part with a Q tip you never get it all out. Don't overthink it. On an engine with a dry sump its not unusual for a substantial amount of oil remains, sometimes as much as a couple of quarts.
Your ABS system flushes itself every time you start the car. If 20% remains when its changed, so what. Its been that way forever. Forget it.
Fluid is not trapped in the reservoir, some dirt is. Quit overthinking oil changes.