355F1 Solenoid

Discussion in '348/355' started by Steve355F1, May 16, 2018.

  1. FerrariChat Miami - Earlybird $ ENDS August 24th at 5pm. https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/ferrarichat-miami-earlybird-ends-august-24th-5pm.582547/ Everything with the event is confirmed and all deposits paid. We already have a double digit number of cars entered including 430 to 488's and 599 to 812's sprinkling in some Californias and classics like 328's. Yes, we have Lamborghinis and McLarens too. We're staying at the Ritz Carlton - Key Biscayne on the beach with events at Homestead Race Track, Miami Design District, The Deck, and Curtiss Mansion.
  1. Qavion

    Qavion Formula 3

    Feb 20, 2015
    1,384
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
  2. Qavion

    Qavion Formula 3

    Feb 20, 2015
    1,384
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    refurbished = new o-rings and a couple of easily-found parts replaced.

    Looks like a nice unit though. One year warranty... I wonder if this covers solenoids?
     
  3. taz355

    taz355 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Feb 18, 2008
    3,817
    Indio Ca/ Alberta
    Full Name:
    Grant
    I think i will take 2
     
  4. WATSON

    WATSON F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Sep 9, 2010
    6,758
    WI
    From the seller:

    The new parts include: electric motor, hydraulic gear pump head (inside the round fulid intake reservoir), hydraulic pressure accumulator, all O-rings and seals. Each solenoid has been removed, O-rings changed, solenoid function bench tested, The whole unit has passed all bench tests: 1) building up and storing hydraulic fluid pressure up to 90bar; 2) the On-Off solenoid function; 2) the EV1, EV2, EV3, EV4, EV5 solenoid on-off and pressure-flow parameters are within the range of the original manufacturer's specifications. The unit is ready for installation. Next week, I will receive a new subframe and mounting vibration damping parts. When assembled, I will increase the price by anouther $1000, because this whole uting will be better than the "new old stock".

    These complete units are currently unavailable through the major Ferrari parts dealers who sell these units for more than $20,000/each. You may find a couple of these units on eBay for about $12,000-$14,000/each, but not in a good shape and need repairs. Even if the unit is labeled as a "NEW OLD STOCK", it has been sitting on the shelf for at least 20 years, so that the old rubber parts, such as O-rings and bladder inside the hydraulic pressure accumulator, may have already gone brittle and will most likely leak (or will leak very soon after installation, as any experienced mechanic will tell you).
     
  5. tres55

    tres55 Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Sep 18, 2012
    1,867
    Canada
    That's a hefty ask.

    GTE Engineering in Florida will rebuild your whole F1 system to brand new or better for far less than that. I think they advertise on eBay as well for $3500 USD.
     
    WATSON, Skippr1999 and Dave rocks like this.
  6. WATSON

    WATSON F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Sep 9, 2010
    6,758
    WI
    I like that idea....but I just want to buy the solenoids and do it myself.
     
    Qavion likes this.
  7. tres55

    tres55 Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Sep 18, 2012
    1,867
    Canada
    I hear ya. I'll be taking my power head apart soon as well to see if I can fix it myself. If not...no harm done. Will remove the whole system and send to GTE for a refresh.
     
    WATSON likes this.
  8. Qavion

    Qavion Formula 3

    Feb 20, 2015
    1,384
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    Has anyone asked GTE if they can repair electrical problems with 355 EV1 & EV2 solenoids?
     
  9. tres55

    tres55 Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Sep 18, 2012
    1,867
    Canada
    From what I understand, you send them everything. They bench test it all and replace/fix what's needed and bill you based on that.

    @Dave rocks I feel like this bench tester is something you could probably figure out. :)

    I recall seeing a picture of a power head / accumulator / actuator all on their rig to test pressures and functionality. Really cool to know that everything is operating within spec on the bench before tossing it all back in.

    The cost isn't so bad in my opinion. These cars are only getting more valuable and the maintenance cost of the F1 has been steadily declining. That makes me happy as I find the F1 to be a unique driving experience in a way the manual can't replicate.
     
    WATSON and Qavion like this.
  10. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
    Sponsor Owner

    Nov 23, 2012
    13,975
    Orchard Park, NY
    Full Name:
    Dave Lelonek
    When I get a minute, I'll give Serkan a call and see what he says.
     
    Qavion likes this.
  11. Qavion

    Qavion Formula 3

    Feb 20, 2015
    1,384
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    Unfortunately, I think we've hit a dead end when it comes to repairing the 355 F1 power unit solenoids...

    I bought a couple of Ferrari 360/Chery QQ Mageneti Marelli solenoid valves from a very helpful fellow FChatter 24000rpm. I intended to pull at least one apart to see what made it tick and I wasn't overly concerned if I used brute force to do that.

    First I tried seeing what I could pull apart on the valve end, then I tried to get into the solenoid case.

    F360 solenoid valve components.

    On the 360, there is a plastic screw-in cap on the end of the valve. The cap has a keyway, probably designed for a special tool, but I found a suitable sized straight screwdriver which enabled me to undo the cap. It was pretty tight and I did break a small part of the plastic keyway. I found some kind of Locktite on one of the threads. Oddly, there is a bleed hole in the plastic cap, I don't know where the hydraulic fluid would go. The cap allows you to remove a small spring and the inner shaft of the valve. Note that the shaft does not go all the way into the soleniod case. The solenoid has a sliding plunger (inside the case) which pushes on the inner shaft when the solenoid is energised.

    The new valves come with some kind of preservative (a light oil). I assume this is displaced or diluted when the system is pressurised with hydraulic fluid.

    I tried to unscrew the valve outer shaft from the case, but even with the shaft in a vyce and a hammer and drift (blunt chisel) on the case flange, I couldn't turn it. I can't even confirm if the shaft is screwed in.

    Next.. the tricky(-er) part. Getting into the solenoid case. I took the solenoid to a machine shop, to see if the case could be cut on a lathe, but the guy there wanted U$110 to do it and since a successful outcome the result couldn't be guaranteed I decided to use an angle grinder with a thin cutting disk. I had to buy a new angle grinder because I couldn't find the key to my dad's old one.

    I cut the case about 5~6mm from where the case starts to curve towards the electrical connector (as suggested on the forum earlier). The case is surprisingly thick. I tried to be as delicate as I could, but I discovered, the solenoid coil windings (at their highest point), come within a millimeter of the case and damage to the coil was inevitable. I'm not sure if a lathe could be set up to spin the case with such accuracy. Oddly, the valve outer shaft has a slight wobble to it and if the valve shaft was held by the lathe, the case would have wobbled (very slightly). The end of the case came off with the coil still firmly attached to it. The solenoid coil consists of copper windings on a plastic bobbin. The bobbin seemed to be held into the end of the case with some extremely hard plastic or epoxy. Even a box cutter barely scratched it. I was unable to detatch the coil from the end of the metal case. Even if I could.. I realised there were other problems to be solved.

    There are a series of bleed holes along the valve which allows hydraulic fluid to flow into the solenoid case, but it only goes to the inside of the plastic solenoid bobbin. No fluid contacts the windings on the outside of the bobbin, thanks to an o-ring seal at one end of the bobbin and solid plastic at the other. Because I cut into the solenoid case.. and the cut is a millimeter or two thick, when the case were to be brazed or welded together again, it would probably have a different case length... and the o-ring may not provide a proper seal. The other problem would be that because the windings on the soleniod are so close to the case, you would probably damage them when you resealed the case... The lacquer on the wires would probably melt (if not the copper wire itself).

    Sorry, to be honest, I can't see a solution. It was a somewhat expensive exercise (considering I don't even have an F1 car :p) Unless the 355F1 valves are significantly different in construction, I think the cause is lost.

    Anyway, these China-sourced valves seem to be the real deal and very well made. They will certainly be great for 360's and other later F1 cars.

    Cheers
    Ian

    P.S. If anyone would like me to hack into the epoxy-ied end of the case for curiosity sake, I'll do so, but it will completely destroy the case.
     
  12. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 22, 2011
    1,191
    Malaysia - KL
    Full Name:
    Miroljub Stojanovic
    The casing probably fills with the oil under pressure, thus the thick walls to be able to withstand it. I believe that the o-ring is there just to allow some compression over the coil spool to hold it steady. I don't think the plastic spool could withstand the oil pressure anyway so there probably are paths for the oil to go pass it and into the casing (no harm to the solenoid windings, like in the case of oil filled ignition coils). If this is correct, than it would be almost impossible to repair/replace a bad solenoid coil by cutting the casing open. I wonder if the solenoid plunger would work if the new solenoid wire is just wound on the outside, over the casing and, if it does, whether there would be enough space to attach the "fat" solenoid valve back on.
     
  13. Qavion

    Qavion Formula 3

    Feb 20, 2015
    1,384
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    Possibly. Note that the o-ring sits on the flat surface of the case. It is free to slide from side to side so there is no lateral movement control.

    I'll try to see how many windings there are on the coil, but wouldn't there be a lot of interference from the case and the existing windings if you wound new windings around the case? Anyway, I would think most folks would be looking for something a little more aesthetic (at least in the long term). I know I don't even like the white plastic ring around my CaptainZ-repaired suspension actuator :p
     
  14. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 22, 2011
    1,191
    Malaysia - KL
    Full Name:
    Miroljub Stojanovic
    The existing windings inside should not interfere much if they are open circuit but, if shorted, they will "eat" a good part of the magnetic field from the external windings at the moment they are energised so there would be some brief delay to the plunger movement (if it can move at all with this solenoid arrangement). I wouldn't bother about the aesthetics if it is the only solution.

    Another way would be to fabricate a repair kit - a larger diameter cup with a fine thread inside and a new spool and windings in it. Then cut a suitable fine thread on the outside of the original (cut open) casing and screw the new cup on with a sealing o-ring or copper washer inside.
     
    Qavion likes this.
  15. Qavion

    Qavion Formula 3

    Feb 20, 2015
    1,384
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    #67 Qavion, Aug 11, 2018 at 10:23 PM
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018 at 10:31 PM
    Yes, it's all a matter of machining capability. I'm sure Dave has the expertise :p Because the case is so thick, it may even be possible to use the existing case with an external thread and match it to a new (360) case with an internal thread.

    To be honest, after further study of the bleed holes, I've had a rethink. I'm not entirely convinced that a huge amount of fluid or pressure reaches the case through these bleed holes.

    I don't know what the valve screws into, but there is a bleed hole in the plastic cap. This would allow the flow of something from the power unit down the centre of the valve inner shaft until it gets to the bleed holes on the side of the inner shaft (see arrowed black line for fluid path).


    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    I've also put a line on the photo to show the relative positions of the inner shaft and the valve as it would be with the solenoid energised... with the spring fully compressed)

    The sliding valve doesn't move enough to expose the small bleed holes to the hydraulic ports along the valve. As far as I can see, the hydraulic fluid can only get into the solenoid case if it squeezes between the microscopic clearance between the raised sections on the valve inner shaft and the inner walls of the valve (think of the lubrication of piston rings in engine)

    Anyway, for any kit, I suppose we would have to confirm, firstly, if the F355 and F360 plunger, coil, etc, have the same movement limits, spring forces, coil impedance, etc, for each valve type. At the moment, I don't have a 355 valve and don't know what it looks like at the plastic cap end (or even if it has a plastic cap).

    If suppose if the kit/repair was professionally done, there'd be customers even if the repair cost, say U$2000 or more, considering the cost of a new power unit. Unfortunately, I'd say that the development and production costs would probably be prohibitive (with such a limited market). We don't have many reported cases of electrical failure. Normally it's just sticky mechanical components.. which can probably cleaned with solvents and/or ultrasound.
     
  16. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
    Sponsor Owner

    Nov 23, 2012
    13,975
    Orchard Park, NY
    Full Name:
    Dave Lelonek
    Please post a photo of the assembled unit.
     
  17. Qavion

    Qavion Formula 3

    Feb 20, 2015
    1,384
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    #69 Qavion, Aug 11, 2018 at 11:52 PM
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018 at 11:59 PM
    Do you need to see anything in particular, Dave? It's hard to take a photograph with the light illuminating the details of the inner shaft (looking through the hydraulic ports. Note that the valves I have are all F360 valves. Until I get my hands on a 355 valve, I don't know how different they will be. One difference is that the 355 valve has an electical plug which is offset from the centre.

    The valve I cut open is an EV3/4/5 valve. I have a new, undamaged EV1/EV2 valve to photograph. I looks almost identical. The inner shaft (at least viewed from the outside) seems to have the same profile. The outside has the same ports at the same locations along the shaft. The only difference is the orientation of the ports with repect to the case.

    Perspective also messes up the photos. The plastic cap, although at least one thread is visible from the outside, in some photos, you can't even see the cap at the end.

    Here's a picture of the valve ports with the valve in its relaxed position:

    360 EV1/2 valve ports (relaxed)

    (Edit: pushing the case back together, I notice that my angle grinding produced a 2.5mm gap in the case).
     
  18. Qavion

    Qavion Formula 3

    Feb 20, 2015
    1,384
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    #70 Qavion, Aug 12, 2018 at 12:08 AM
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018 at 12:17 AM
    One of the problems of making an inner and outer thread on the case halves would be that it would affect the tighness of the o-ring and the orientation of the electrical plug.

    Photo of the whole valve:

    360 EV3/4/5
     
  19. Qavion

    Qavion Formula 3

    Feb 20, 2015
    1,384
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    #71 Qavion, Aug 12, 2018 at 12:19 AM
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018 at 12:28 AM
  20. Qavion

    Qavion Formula 3

    Feb 20, 2015
    1,384
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    The power unit doesn't have some special reservoir for oil/lubricant does it? Only hydraulic lines?

    Dave, if you don't need any more pics of the chopped up valve, I'll cut open the top of the case near the plug tomorrow and see what's in there. Only a few parts of this valve will be usable after I've finished due to the forces I've already applied (and perhaps the metal swarf getting into places it shouldn't be in). The springs, o-rings and inner shaft should be ok.

    I might try using heat to undo the collar around the valve shaft (assuming it's threaded where it goes into the case).

    Anyway, if someone wants these good or bad pieces later, I'd be happy to pass them on.
     
  21. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
    Sponsor Owner

    Nov 23, 2012
    13,975
    Orchard Park, NY
    Full Name:
    Dave Lelonek
    Ian, the inner shaft is called a spool. As far as the case, from photos earlier in this thread, I'd say it's not a casting. The mounting flange appears to be welded to the case body. If I had one in hand, I could tell you exactly how it's made and assembled. It's very possible the top (where the electrical connector comes out) is roll formed closed. Take a look at the top of the case and you will see what I mean.

    If that is the situation, the case would be destroyed opening it and a new case would be needed which would not be hard to manufacture and it would be better to design it not requiring a permanent seal.
     
  22. Qavion

    Qavion Formula 3

    Feb 20, 2015
    1,384
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    You're right about the roll forming, Dave. Looks like it's cold formed over a metal collar with such precision that it lightly compresses an o-ring.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    The coil has to be removed from the direction of the plug by, perhaps, cutting the top of the case (about where the metal collar is)

    The stuff I thought was epoxy is simply very hard white plastic.
     
    WATSON likes this.
  23. Qavion

    Qavion Formula 3

    Feb 20, 2015
    1,384
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Do you think if you cut the case at that metal collar region, it could be welded back in the same area?

    Opening up the case should allow you to rewind the coil (at least). You might even be able to transplant the coil and electrical plug of a 360 solenoid valve to a 355 solenoid valve.
     
    WATSON likes this.

Share This Page