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360 360 F1 Gearbox Transmission not selecting gear - No Error Lights 430 Stradale

Discussion in '360/430' started by spiderscott, Apr 17, 2019.

  1. spiderscott

    spiderscott Formula 3

    Feb 24, 2004
    1,639
    Ratarossa HQ UK
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    Ratarossa
    Ironically shortly after I release a video how its great to daily a Ferrari my Strad decides to throw me a curveball :D:D:D

    As per title my F1 transmission won't engage into any gear or reverse.

    Symptoms;
    1. No error lights on dash (gearbox light normally illuminates if error)
    2. F1 pump will cycle correctly when the drivers door opens.
    3. Stuck in Neutral
    4. When I attempt to engage gear, I can hear the actuator going through the correct motions and attempting two engage either first or reverse if I try it but just won't go in.

    Points to note;
    Ive used the car as a daily for 9 years and never changed the clutch, neither is there evidence its been changed by previous owner. So possibly original clutch. That said there has been ZERO evidence of any clutch slip prior to this issue.

    I changed the F1 pump a few years ago. However it's done more miles than most since then, but again the symptoms are must different to when the first pump when wrong. Cannot be ruled out

    There is no sign of any fluid leak either around the pump area or under the car near actuator. Levels in the reservoir are correct.

    My thoughts;
    The system appears to be going through the correct motions and no errors are coming up on the dash.
    1. Seal gone and the pressure is not enough
    2. Actuator worn
    3. One of the sensors is bad

    Will video this and add to technical content on my channel

    Any suggestions appreciated

    Cheers
    Scott
     
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  3. mike01606

    mike01606 Formula Junior

    Feb 21, 2012
    793
    Cheshire UK
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    Mike M
    Scott,
    It's a pity you're not nearer to me otherwise I might be able to help. It needs connecting to diagnostic system to properly identify what's going on and it should be fairly clear where the fault lies once you have a few readings. The system I have works pretty well with the CS TCU but I'd rather not put it in the post!

    You need to know if you are getting and maintaining hydraulic pressure (sounds like it if the pump is cycling on and off)
    You need to know if the clutch is opening (physically and not just release bearing position).
    You need to know if the actuator is moving in both the selection and engagement axis.

    There may be stored messages in the TCU. Mine often has the odd message and I've never seen an F1 warning light so a light isn't guaranteed.
    Have you ruled out a leak on the clutch bleed block etc? When it tries to select does the gear display change?

    The process is quite methodical, pressure, clutch open, select, engage, clutch close. Each action needs confirmation from a sensor.

    A complete guess if you are opening a book..... the clutch pressure plate has broken down and the release bearing is moving correctly but the clutch is staying closed blocking it selecting a gear. The clutch gets a lot of hammer particularly if driven in Sport regularly.
     
  4. E60 M5

    E60 M5 Moderator
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    Jan 2, 2006
    6,795
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    Robert
    Check the rear deck lid, engine cover, if thats not aligned it can cause the same issue. I believe there are 2 sensors for closure of the lid
     
  5. spiderscott

    spiderscott Formula 3

    Feb 24, 2004
    1,639
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    Thanks guys.

    Ive just shot a quick video so show exactly what's happening.

     
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  6. spiderscott

    spiderscott Formula 3

    Feb 24, 2004
    1,639
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    Thanks, as you can see in the video the car is sensing that the engine lid is closed, nothing on the dash and it allows me to 'attempt' to select gear
     
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  8. spiderscott

    spiderscott Formula 3

    Feb 24, 2004
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    Ratarossa


    Mike you have PM
     
  9. brookliner7

    brookliner7 Formula Junior

    May 5, 2018
    584
    San Antonio, TX
    Full Name:
    Hans
    If you hear it trying to select gears then my first thought would be a stuck throwout bearing or low pressure / fluid in the F1 system, if that was the case I'd expect the F1 pumped to be cycling trying to build pressure.

    How many miles have you put on your clutch that you know of?
     
  10. mike01606

    mike01606 Formula Junior

    Feb 21, 2012
    793
    Cheshire UK
    Full Name:
    Mike M
    Replied with my contact details also :)

    You could remove the black 'Selespeed' cover off the end of the actuator (it's only a dust cover) and see if the hydraulic shuttles are actually moving. There are two shuttles/actuators, one converts linear to rotary movement for selection action (across the gate on a manual) and the other is the linear engagement actuator (forwards/backwards on a manual). One is larger diameter and I can't remember which is which. I'll have a look later and update the post.
    Have you an endoscope as with the bumper already off you can quickly look at the clutch pressure plate through the access by the bleed block.
     
  11. mike01606

    mike01606 Formula Junior

    Feb 21, 2012
    793
    Cheshire UK
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    Mike M
    The larger diameter shuttle is engagement and the smaller is selection.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
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  13. spiderscott

    spiderscott Formula 3

    Feb 24, 2004
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    Thanks Mike, I've just done exactly that and also been speaking and getting some excellent help from Aldous 'Voicey' from AV Engineering. Combined we are narrowing this issue down which is what I had hoped for and at the same time I'm learning how it all works.

    Annoying and inconvenient that these problems are with any car, I really do enjoy the learning part of it when it comes to rectifying the problem. To then pass on my findings and help others understand in future who encounter the same problem is another bonus.

    Will upload another video with latest findings.
     
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  14. spiderscott

    spiderscott Formula 3

    Feb 24, 2004
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  15. mike01606

    mike01606 Formula Junior

    Feb 21, 2012
    793
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    Mike M
    Scott,

    It looks like the selection actuator (small one) isn’t clocking or rotating the selector mechanism.
    There’s are pin inside that moves in a channel to convert the linear to rotary motion.
     
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  16. spiderscott

    spiderscott Formula 3

    Feb 24, 2004
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    Today I fully stripped apart the F1 actuator. This mythical beast that most are very wary of is actually pretty simple, I don't see any reason why we couldn't put together a simple rebuild kit.

    As both Mike and Aldous correctly diagnosed the pin(s) were broken inside the selector clocking mechanism. This is a common issue.

    Ive put together a video of the removal and strip down of the Actuator from my 360 F1 for those interested in seeing the inside and how it all works.

    Hope its helpful :cool::cool::cool:

     
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  17. spiderscott

    spiderscott Formula 3

    Feb 24, 2004
    1,639
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    Sensors
    Citroen Peugeot labelled
    Part numbers on casing ;

    Lower (black connector block) 2772A 1517 9642473280
    Ferrari part number : 181325 Price £727.17 Eurospares

    Rear sensor (Grey connector block) 3382A0823 96424732 80
    Ferrari part number 181325 Price £727.17 Eurospares

    So the ferrari part number is the same for both sensors.

    Quick search found loads available on ebay for less than £15

    Ive not verified they are 100% interchangeable and it looks like they might need to be modified .....
    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/trying-to-understand-the-f1-actuator-sensor-wiring-pinouts.578408/


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  18. mike01606

    mike01606 Formula Junior

    Feb 21, 2012
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    Great work Scott,

    First person brave enough to publically pull one apart that I’ve seen.
    I’d imagine one pin fails then the other shortly afterwards.
    It actually looks to be well engineered but as you say nothing to be scared about.

    Do the Peugeot sensors have plugs or are they hard wired?
    A guy on here said there was either a pin missing or an extra pin on the sensors he bought.
    They are readily available new as throttle position sensors so will be nothing exotic.

    Are you going to change the hydraulic seals whilst it’s apart?

    M
     
  19. jg360

    jg360 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 8, 2018
    268
    New Jersey
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    John Gurrieri
    Scott, great job so far! Thanks for sharing this post. I have a spare actuator I was going to pull apart but haven’t gotten a chance yet. Watching the video solves the big mystery. Hope you can source the seals and gasket. Keep up the good work!


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  20. flash32

    flash32 Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
    2,476
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    Dominick
    Scott

    Can you tell us more about the bleed screws and how they function when you turn them out for bleeding system ..describe the fluid flow

    Appreciate it

    Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk
     
  21. spiderscott

    spiderscott Formula 3

    Feb 24, 2004
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    Yes the Ferrari sensors have plugs that are hardwired. I'm pretty sure for a £700 per sensor saving we can figure out a way of modifying them :cool:

    Any seals I can source I will change along with a really good clean up of the entire actuator before it getting put back together.


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  22. spiderscott

    spiderscott Formula 3

    Feb 24, 2004
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    Thanks John. Well worth you pulling your spare apart, assuming its a broken one ? What was the problem with it ?
     
  23. Angus ferrier

    Angus ferrier Rookie

    Jul 28, 2018
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    Angu ferrier
     
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  24. spiderscott

    spiderscott Formula 3

    Feb 24, 2004
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    --------------

    Dominick, I'll video and post the entire process we go through to reassemble and bleed the system. Think that should close off this Ferrari Actuator mystery nicely.
     
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  25. Angus ferrier

    Angus ferrier Rookie

    Jul 28, 2018
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    have you ever had ur 360 F1 Stall on you ?
     
  26. spiderscott

    spiderscott Formula 3

    Feb 24, 2004
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    Not that I recall.

    What are your symptoms ? Has it done it more than once, if so how long has it been happening. Any work happened on the car recently or since it started to stall ?
     

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