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458 or 488

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by ttforcefed, Jul 18, 2019.

?

458 or 488

  1. 458

    149 vote(s)
    74.9%
  2. 488

    50 vote(s)
    25.1%
  1. PhilNotHill

    PhilNotHill Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Carbs are a blessing, especially in the mountains. We live at 8,000 ft above sea level and the pass is 11,200 ft. With carbs you need high altitude jets. A hassle to change back and forth.

    Turbos have good points and bad points. Yes you get more power at altitude than na but there is also turbo lag and less aggressive sound and lower revs.

    That said we have three cars
    458 Spider na
    Audi S4 supercharged manual transmission
    Audi S5 turbo charged tiptronic transmission

    While the turbo has very little lag the supercharger has none. The turbo has a little more hp and torque but cabrio iweighs more. The S4 handles better through the twisties and is more fun to drive. But not more fun than the 458. Not even close. Nor should it be since it costs 4x as much but worth every penny.
     
  2. MANDALAY

    MANDALAY Formula 3
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    In altitude N/A loose , period. Also with heat

    The turbo will just keep going

    Supercharger as I love them, drain the engine power.
     
  3. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    Excellent insight.

    My personal taste regarding engines (not the universal truth, just my 2 cents worth of experience):

    1) Naturally aspirated.
    2) Supercharged.
    3) Turbocharged.

    ...
    ...
    ...

    159) Hybrid

    ...
    ...
    ...

    905) Painful death

    ...
    ...
    ...

    1123) Electric.

    1124) Autonomous cars, regardless of power source.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
  4. MANDALAY

    MANDALAY Formula 3
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    I would agree also but the problem , not for many though is that at Altitude the power will drop with the N/A, Next SC isn't efficient as it uses the engine but still retains the open exhaust as with the N/A.
     
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  5. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    Hahaha, great post as always Nuno.

    Thank God that I've never been in an accident that was my fault in my 25+ years and 1/2 million miles of driving (knock on wood). What's scares me the most is bad drivers, I'm sure we've all seen crazy things. I see bad drivers daily.

    In crazy city streets, I actually prefer autonomous cars because I do believe they will cut down on accidents in 20-30 years when they perfect it.

    Of course, I myself prefer to be in control, but for mundane commutes or work, I think it is better.

    I know, I know hang me now! Hahaha
     
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  6. HX_Guy

    HX_Guy Karting

    Jun 23, 2019
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    Pssh! :D I can tell you from the perspective of someone that has both the *1* and the *1123/1124* that both definitely have their place. And the *1* only because of the 458, otherwise the Tesla all day every day over a normal sedan like my wife's Mercedes E Class.
     
  7. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    Hahaha no sir! Not me, my friend. You’re always a true gentleman when presenting your ideas. I take more pleasure and enlightenment from the extremely rare cases that I might partially disagree with you, than when I agree with most people.

    I understand your point and, from a scientific point of view, there’s no arguing that computer-governed cars would most likely bring efficiency up and deaths on the road down, although artificial intelligence still lacks perfecting. If logic reigns, it is indeed the best solution. But there’s something intangible, romantic and/or emotional, about driving, about men taming a machine, like a wild animal. And I’m not intellectually prepared to give up one of the things in life I take most pleasure in.

    Like the great italian World Rally Championship legend Massimo “Miki” Biasion said: “Driving is the best, most fun thing a clothed man can do”.

    You’ve made also one very interesting point in this 458 vs 488 debate: that the 488 may suffer from the “middle child” syndrome, something I’m very inclined to agree with.

    There’s also two variables that may help to explain, at least in part, the overwhelming discrepancy of this poll:

    1) The 488 marks the first time in Ferrari history that from one model to the next, engine capacity decreased. It was the first time ever Ferrari downsized a mainstream model:

    - 308
    Tipo F105/6: 2927cc

    - 328
    Tipo F105: 3186cc

    - 348
    Tipo F119: 3405cc

    - 355
    Tipo F129: 3496cc

    - 360
    Tipo F131: 3586cc

    - 430
    Tipo F136: 4308cc

    - 458
    Tipo F136: 4499cc

    - 488
    Tipo F154: 3902cc

    2) Ferrari is changing as a company. It’s changing their essence, their philosophy and their products which, in turn, is changing the demographics, taste and geography of their customers. The 458 was the last V8 flagship launched by the founder’s protege, Luca di Montezemolo, it was heralded as the last hurrah of the “true” Ferrari.

    As discussed here:

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/ferrari-today-theres-something-missing.604353/page-3

    there is something missing today in Ferrari, and to an extent, a clear disenchantment and growing disconnection between their loyal, traditional, “old” customers, that may have turned to the 458 as the means to own, enjoy and experience the last of a kind.

    Something I’ve addressed at post #. of the thread above, that I’ll copy here:

    “The first Ferraris were basically racing cars with number plates on them. Now, we’re witnessing hybrids and soon SUVs rolling out of the production line.

    Ferrari on the track and on the road was synonymous with maximum performance and feel, no compromise. Today, we’re witnessing engine downsizing and compliance with environmental policies first and foremost.

    We’ve witnessed companies straying so far from their essence, that from their true soul, all that remains is a hollow name: Lotus, Porsche, Lamborghini... I just hoped Ferrari was above and beyond that. It is one of the brands that resisted the most, but in the end it also gave out, trading their essence for profit. And I for one firmly believe it *IS* possible to keep up with the times, and remain true to what you stand for.

    Enzo said: “The requirements of mass production are contrary to my nature and temperament”. Ferrari now produces in excess of 10.000 cars each year. The outlook? To increase it further and further with each passing fiscal year.

    I could go on and on. Still great cars, but I suspect they don’t make kids dream about owning one anymore, or hang up posters on their bedroom wall. And I think the biggest departure from what the brand truly stands for happened with the departure of the founder’s protege, Luca di Montezemolo.

    What can we do? Nothing, except taking good care of our cars, and look elsewhere for a car built on the principles Ferrari used to apply in days gone. There’s a new corporate philosophy, different cars and a completely different customer base in terms of geography, age and taste. Folks who put emphasis on tradition, history and racing will be dinosaurs. Even so, I believe all Ferraris up to Montezemolo’sdeparture will command a huge premium on the market in 10/20 years.

    So, in response to the OP, I’d say there’s a lot missing alright, with nothing to look for in the future except more of the same. And before you ask, or think I’m just a nostalgic guy that reminisces of better days, I’m not 70 or 80. I’m 34. I’m just proudly *NOT* a product of my (some call millennial) generation.”


    Kind regards,

    Nuno
     
  8. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    Val,

    Life has taught me a lesson: never second-guess your wife’s choices. Our wives always know best, and make the best decisions all the time and have the best taste. Always.

    After all , they chose us! :cool::D

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
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  9. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    You and I are birds of a feather. I could not agree more with you. Stripping actual driving to me is like a trip to the doctor for a snip (if you know what i mean)

    :)

    My prediction on what will happen is this. Cars will all eventually become autonomous with manual driving. However, if you activate 'manual' mode and get in accident, the insurance company will not cover you. (or have a very high deductible/policy premium for this allowance)

    Thankfully, I believe you and I are safe for the foreseeable future!!!

    I read your exegesis and found myself nodding in agreement. In fact Luca himself said: “Ferrari is now American,” which represents “the end of an era.”

    As an American myself, I don't think he meant this a slight, simply that America is really good at making money, and sometimes the product can suffer as a result of that if the profit over passion balance become awry.

    Cordiali saluti amico!
     
  10. PhilNotHill

    PhilNotHill Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Owning a sports car for me is all about fun. Driving my 458 spider: never had so much fun with my clothes on! :)
     
  11. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    In a completely unrelated poll, posted at the California/Portofino section, aimed to understand what was the car California owners eager the most to own after the Cali, the 458 racked up the most votes, in front of the actual California replacement, the Portofino, and clearly in front of the 488.

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/what-do-you-aspire-to-next.604931/

    Although this poll had much fewer attendance, I think it’s interesting to witness that the 458 won again, and I’m pretty sure there is no animosity towards the 488 in that completely unrelated forum subsection.

    Again: interesting, as in debating material. Goes to definitely prove nothing, except personal preference.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
  12. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
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    As much as all the current 488 owners try to deny it, I think most people agree by now that the 458 is just a better all around Ferrari to own.

    The whole debate sort of reminds me when new 430 owners were all running around talking up their cars over the 360. But 20 years later, a gated 6-speed 360 still commands top dollar, while almost nobody could care less about having a 430 sitting in their garage.

    On the 488, I think a lot of people - me included - were kind of thinking the 488 might feel a bit more like the second coming of the F40 somehow - given that it's a twin-turbo V8 and all. But nope.

    Ray
     
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  13. ShineKen

    ShineKen F1 Rookie
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    458 > 488

    Scud > 458

    so Scud > 488 ? *Mind Blown*
     
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  14. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ

    Aug 22, 2002
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    for me its 360cs>458>scud>488
     
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  15. dustman

    dustman F1 Rookie

    Jun 12, 2007
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    Perfect.
     
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  16. flifer

    flifer Karting

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  17. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    Mike,

    You’re right, I agree with you. The Maserati GT is probably one of the best cars in the world soundwise, I put it right up there shoulder to shoulder with the 458.

    Nevertheless, it’s a completely different brand, Maserati. Some view it as the low cost Ferrari (something I personally disagree). So, I believe the comparison between the two might not be 100% valid, as the 458 vs 488 tests preference within the Ferrari range.

    Enjoy your 488 in good health!

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
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  18. sampelligrino

    sampelligrino Formula Junior

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    #293 sampelligrino, Aug 14, 2019 at 9:38 AM
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019 at 9:49 AM
    I think you are forgetting the 208 GTB (non turbo and turbo) and even the 288 GTO was a probably a tiny bit smaller in its V8 than the 308 it was based on in terms of “smaller displacement.” and that was quite a car if I’m not mistaken (which added turbos). Or now you might want to get into degrees of shrunken displacement

    I’m younger than the person in the quote, and I wanted the 488. I’m unique in my age group because most of my friends at this age lust after the 458 (those who are even into cars). Why? Because it’s NA, but also bluntly because they have a better chance of affording it the way things stand now. That makes it better for them than the 488. One of my friends is saving up to try and get a 2010 Italia and I’m encouraging him

    I didn’t say in 5-10-15+ years or whatever, because things can happen in the future that could make it irrelevant. And whatever the car may be 458/488/250 SWB etc I intend to depreciate it to get my moneys worth, not by investment and resale as I (like probably everyone else on here) pay fees already for people to take care of that for me. YMMV




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  19. dustman

    dustman F1 Rookie

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    Ford Shelby GT350R one of the best exhausts. But I dont drive stick anymore or I would have over a 458 any day.
    Maserati sounds EPIC outside, I didn’t find it to be the case inside while I was driving, as sometimes happens in cars. So that was a fail.
    LFA is superb outside, and pretty good inside. But not worth 2x a 458 IMO.
    There are more cars we could debate for sure...
     
  20. ShineKen

    ShineKen F1 Rookie
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  21. HX_Guy

    HX_Guy Karting

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    Whats the redline on a 488? I thought it was 8500 RPM but saw an interior picture of a 2016 488 GTB this morning and looked like 7750?
     
  22. LVP488

    LVP488 Formula 3

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    The Scud has some character, but I prefer a regular 458 to it for exactly the same reasons I prefer the 488 to the 458; for me since the 360 the following models have been gradually improved generations after generations, so that the older car is always less resolved than the newer one, but at the same time the changes are not so radical as to make the older car more special (I don't buy the N/A / turbo buzz).
    The 355 had almost the same architecture as the Dino 206, with the tubular frame supporting the body (of course I don't say they are the same, there are many differences, V8 vs V6, longitudinal vs transverse engine and so on) - the 355 was the end of an era and so could be a real classic now, the drawback being that its performance is completely outdated. The 360 Modena introduced the aluminium monoshell and all cars from then have built on that - the F430, 458, 488 are all "intermediate" cars in this respect, each has brought improvements without any revolution. The F8 (and its VS version) might be the last of this line, time will tell.
    Anyway I'm not really interested in collecting cars, I prefer to drive them, but that does not prevent me from believing some cars are milestones while others are not - the 488 is not, but I'm convinced time will make clear that in the same way neither F430 nor 458 are. Which does not mean they are bad btw.
     
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  23. LVP488

    LVP488 Formula 3

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    Redline is 8000 but the limiter is lower in most situations.
     
  24. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    Sam,

    Indeed you are right, my mistake. Thank you for pointing it out.

    8000rpm as per rev counter, although it shifts earlier, between 7500rpm and 7750/7800rpm. I’m not exactly sure, I’ve always minded the road and not the needle. I seem to remember a thread some time ago of a member stating just that, he complained about his car never reaching 8000rpm, only to find out all work that way. Although imho the 488 has so much power and torque, it doesn’t matter.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
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  25. Eilig

    Eilig Formula 3

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    The 458 represented a high water mark... An almost 10 year old car that continues to generate excitement and enthusiasm, as evidence by this "unofficial" yet meaningful poll. Timeless Pininfarina design looks as fresh today as it did 10 years ago. The largest displacement V8 to reside in a modern mid-engine Ferrari, with 9000 redline! And on, and on... History will prove it out, and in fact it is already beginning to happen... Ask any dealer and they'll tell you that 458's are a hot commodity.... (and 488's just SIT on the showroom floor)
     
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