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David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Streetrod, Sep 6, 2012.

  1. peterp

    peterp F1 Veteran

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    I really have no idea whether it can or cannot be certified as a P4. If I am correct that the mechanical changes between P4 and CanAm are trivial, then I don't see any reason why it wouldn't warrant being certified as a P4 if everything was correct because there is no major difference between the cars beyond body. Certainly, in period, if Ferrari had a need for a P4 again after CanAm, they would have converted it back. All this being said, I could still see Ferrari sticking to the definition of it as a CanAm, but I would say that is a philosophical distinction rather than an actual one given there was no major mechanical distinction. In the end, I don't care much how Ferrari classifies the car -- someone like Marcel's view counts more to me.

    I also think the use of "replica body" is a smear campaign on this car. There are tons of certified cars that have bodies created from scratch, many with English wheel or whatever else does not exactly match how the factory did it or even the shape. They have been restored as best they can be and they aren't referred to as a "replica" bodies. In the case of 0858, you can make the case that the P4 is an "inappropriate" body, but other than that, it's no more replica than any other instances where a body need to be created to restore the car.
     
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  2. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    correct MOST SIGNIFIGANT F cars have been rebodied (non factory original, non period)
    Many TRs, Fantuzzis, Ps, GTOs, LMs etc have tubes and bodies replaced/restored.
    We have works replicas (250LM)

    If 0858 250 can am can not be certified as a P4 then neither can 0860 (350 can am)
     
  3. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
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    No 'smear' just fact and the replica body was not made out of a damage or need in period but 43 years later upon marketing reasons replacing the perfect original body.
     
  4. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #3179 miurasv, Feb 11, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
    In 2013 Ferrari Classiche would not certify 0858 as a P4 due to the 350 4.2 litre engine size not being used when a P4 and moreover the committee had decided not to authorise any modification to preserve the only remaining 350 Can Am. I asked them if they would certify the car if they made and installed new tipo 237 4.0 litre P4 cylinder block and correct pistons but they would not authorise any modification to the car and refused my request.

    Regarding 0860, if 0858 was still in 350 Can Am configuration, I wonder if Classiche would have certified it as a P4 if the engine was returned to tipo 237 4.0 litre P4 specification???
     
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  5. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
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    I personally believe that with enough money and connections an owner could sway Classiche to change that direction, regardless of policy.
     
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  6. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #3181 miurasv, Feb 12, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
    That is not the impression I got at the time. The door was firmly closed. 5 years on and after the car has now actually been reconfigured as a P4 that may have changed. I know nothing of money being a persuasive factor beyond the actual costs to carry out the work.
     
  7. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
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    It is only a personal belief/ opinion, on my part for I have no actual evidence except for the fact they classiche red booked Violati's P car when it was a replica and the remains of the original were in another country and constituted another well known car. I still think that if a well connected mega collector like Stroll, McCaw or even a very well connected dealer went to Ferrari Classiche with a large enough wad of cash they might make the choice to decide that #0858 is actually a P4 and that new evidence blah, blah, blah, actually I can imagine the press release now lol. And I can't say I would blame Classiche because it exists to create profit for Ferrari Spa, again, just my opinion.
     
  8. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    I don't know the facts of the 0818 case to have an opinion or that money was of influence in it being Red Booked. I'd have thought that JC, HL and DP were well connected enough if connections were the thing to have swung a Red Book for P4 0858.
     
  9. ginge82

    ginge82 Formula 3

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    As an aside, I think its important to point out that Mr Forghieri's opinion, recollections, and declarations seem to depend entirely on who he happens to be in contact with at a given point in time. This has been proven.

    To be VERY clear, Ferrari declined to confirm that the engine in this car is original to it from its days as a genuine P4. The chassis has been chopped at least twice since those days, its original body lost, its interior changed, I could go on and on...

    'Original P4'? What a joke. Not even Classiche want anything to do with that fantasy.
     
  10. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #3185 miurasv, May 3, 2018
    Last edited: May 3, 2018
    John Collins makes clear in a Henry Catchpole interview in the current edition of Enzo magazine what he thinks of Glickenhaus' and all his .... ....... friends' view that it was sacrilege to have removed the Can Am body and put it back to a P4.
     
  11. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    #3186 Vincent Vangool, May 26, 2018
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    I agree with Timmmmmmmmmmy's post #3182

    Did you feel he was going to say "You know what? Those people are actually right." ? Of course he is going to say his attempt at recreating history honored whatever.
     
  12. Lusso123

    Lusso123 Formula 3
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    John Collins continues to try to revise history to suit his own beliefs and or needs.....it seems he's applied his early career training at the Daily Express, and National Enquirer to car sales. It's all about money with him, not the cars, and history be damned. In various ways, he has destroyed more than one significant car, and though he may have sold boatloads of F cars, that does not make him better or more knowledgeable than anyone else.
     
  13. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #3188 miurasv, Feb 6, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 7, 2020
    [removed request of user]
     
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  14. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

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    #3189 readplays, Feb 6, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 7, 2020
    They could have gone with a shorter stroke via a different crank. Better would be to sleeve the existing cylinders back down. If they've reduced the displacement from 4.2 liters back to the original 4.0 I'm sure it's a safe bet that they achieved this through sleeving the cylinders.
     
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  15. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    375+, AtSomePoint and colombo2cam like this.
  16. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO F1 Rookie
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    Was a BIG mistake to convert the CanAm.
    And car n°6 was a spider at Brands-Hatch.
    And why eight louvers on the rear ?
     
  17. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    I understand it has been red book certified so it must be correct…………??

    Marcel Massini
     
  18. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    0858 has not been Red Book Certified as a P4. It is Red Book Certified as a 350 Can Am, as you know.
     
  19. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO F1 Rookie
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    Yes, Ferrari Classiche is always right. But I believe less and less what FC certifies. Where is the truth about #1004 and #1012 ? I'm not what is called an expert, but I understand that we have now two #1004 ??? See here :

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/what-happened-to-the-suppposed-25-versions-of-the-512s-produced.135391/page-44
    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/ferrari-512s-chassis-1012-where-did-it-go.571128/page-2

    #0858 was an untouched original CanAm car for so many years. Now its just a "look like" P4.
     
  20. Lusso123

    Lusso123 Formula 3
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    Ferrari Classiche is an embarrassment. And as far as this car goes, it's now just another replica, with a fake body that has NO valid connection to Ferrari - never made in period, and not even made in Italy. Unfortunately this isn't the first Ferrari John Collins has screwed up, he should leave the Ferrari world and go back to writing for the Enquirer.
     
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  21. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    What happened to the can am body?
     
  22. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #3197 miurasv, Feb 9, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2020
    Talacrest sold it with the car and I would guess that it is still with it.
     
  23. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Well, no doubt you realized that I tried to make a joke………..(with my post #3192).

    Marcel Massini
     
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  24. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    Yes, I did wonder. In my post I should have said 0858 WAS Red Book certified as a 350 Can Am, which will not now be the case since the reconfiguration as a P4.
     

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