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Does K n N air filter really work?

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Circle K, Feb 6, 2021.

  1. GordonC

    GordonC F1 Rookie
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    #76 GordonC, Feb 18, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2021
    In reality, you haven't bothered to research Fram filters here and seen the photos of collapsed filters that blocked oil flow in Ferrari engines. That's the only way you can claim there is nothing wrong with them. Those of us who've seen the actual evidence know that in reality the Fram filters made in the 90s and 00s were of poor quality and did fail catastrophically. How often? Often enough for the owners who lost a Ferrari engine due to a collapsed Fram filter. They might be better made now, or maybe the cheap ones are still garbage and their more expensive lines might be better enough - but given that we have filters available that don't have a history of collapsing and starving oil flow, I'll never put a Fram on my 308.

    You know the old Fram filter design that used to be specified by Ferrari in the 1960s was changed in the 1980s sometime, and filters newer than that were not the same as the older units which used to be well made. Lots of people would claim that Ferrari used to use Fram, just look at the old photos - but aside from being orange, there was very little in common. Fram simplified the design to make them cheaper to build, and they were indeed cheaply made and inadequate.


    Type in this forum's Search function "Fram filter collapse" - the very first result is a thread from 2008,
    Fram filter collapse = 1/2 oil pressure Have a look at that thread, and then tell us there is nothing wrong with Fram filters.

    [​IMG]

    A few threads down on the search results list, you'll find 1989 328 GTS oil change Post #10 in that thread from Rifledriver, aka Brian Crall, a professional Ferrari mechanic with many decades of working on Ferraris:


    Keep reading through that search results list, and then come back and tell us that there are no problems with Fram. The proof is right here, would you accept it or continue to deny first-hand reports?

    Gordon
     
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  3. kryten2001

    kryten2001 Formula Junior

    Like I said, just like any other oil thread.
     
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  4. janmante

    janmante Karting
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    now it is an oilfilter thread ! LOL
     
  5. janmante

    janmante Karting
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    OK , gee I was kidding but the modern Fram are Fine ! - Really ! use them on OTHER cars ! (NOT my Ferrari ) fitted this giant , the specs are close enough to the OEM View attachment 3092911 View attachment 3092912 View attachment 3092919 View attachment 3092911 View attachment 3092912 View attachment 3092919 ,added an extra quart ! No issues for years now ! the poor car ( a Saab ) only had paltry 4 qt capacity before ! not enough for a modern high output turbo car !
    thx
    I only use new genuine Ferrari filters for oil though I did recently buy some OEM challenge filters fr Australia ! ( They are longer so slightly more filter surface area ) the seller sent them in a thin single layer bubble wrap envelope and they were falling out of their thin cardboard boxes and arrived pre-damaged w/ contusions and dents! ( I got my $ back )
    NO i will NOT use them on a car nor re-sell them !
     

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  6. janmante

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    yea I read that post and the OP admitted there was some issue w/ the pressure relief valve ? As some said, ANY filter could have collapsed in that scenario . SO the filter could well have been the effect NOT the cause .IDK crap happens on a racetrack !

    I'm only using the FACTORY oil filters ( NOT Fram ) on my F430 so I needn't worry about it . Fram filters ? moot point .

    IF a Wix or Mann or Purolator filter collapsed would you say they were no good ? Based on a similar anecdotal report(s) ? sounds like it !
    several posts said they had used Fram for years w/ no issues that is significant . I have too .
    They DO test these things and things like this are rare ,
    ,Actually ( not to stick up for them ) but some have critiqued the use of cardboard composite end cap but engineering-wise that is actually BETTER , it is easier to glue than to metal and less vulnerable to separation .
     
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  8. janmante

    janmante Karting
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    sure anecdotal first hands reports whilst valid to a degree may not at all be representative . you are looking at failures not success ! agree IF there enough failures it may condemn a thing but a small amount of failures does not mean they are all bad "a bad apple does not spoil the bushel "
    lets be honest, you are bound and determined to "prove" something is bad so you will seek any evidence even if it is not significant staisticly.
    And in this example, it sure seems like the filter failure was an effect, not a cause! theses things are engineered and designed NOT to collapse,they rarely do ! I would be MORE curious the CAUSE why aren't you ?
    ordinarily, I believe in "Occam's razor " = the simplest thing that will account for the observed phenomenon is the cause. But not always.
    my friend was disassembling an BMW M/C engine that a guy had died on and when he took off the oil pan he saw the oil pick up on the bottom A phenolic block was used as spacer it failed, let the bolts loosen, the pick up dropped the motor was starved of oil it seized he hit a telephone pole died . Noone knew why the guy hit the pole we found out ! wasn't his fault ! they thought the motor seized AFTER the crash . turns out it was the proximal cause, not a distal one helped his family as they knew he was good rider
     
  9. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Veteran
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    Like no. I had two vehicles with K&N. They both ended up with gritty dust downstream of the K&N. I don’t really care what someone here says. I know what happened to my vehicles. Did the dust in the intake cause damage to the engine? I honestly don’t know. As soon as I discovered the dirt I threw both away. One of the cars I sold the other currently has almost 200,000 miles.
     
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  10. janmante

    janmante Karting
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    IME I do not see how grity dust could get thru a K &N filter maybe a loose clamp or other leak !? they filter fine and I have NEVER seen anything like that and apparently neither have millions of others ! never seen this reported - except here ! doubt it was the filter sorry
    saw one guy w/ issues but he never oiled his ! use what you like ,but know your experience is an outlier
     
  11. 85MondialQV

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  13. janmante

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    #85 janmante, Feb 20, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2021
    you know it reminds me of a thatched roof or a rataaan roof in the far east where you can see light but does rain get thru ? NO ,QUite dry ! and sand or dirt NO, not really ! Yet it breathes ! quite comfortable !
    This technology is eons old
    many overlapping layers of cotton gauze MUCH finer than a thatched roof and it is oiled too w/a special oil .
    sorry this example is not valid . K& N they work and work well .
    If you don't fancy them do not use them !
    OMG they have 60 K applications ! quite a product range for over 52 years ! you reckon they have hoodwinked everybody ? for a half-century? Not bloody likely !

    PS I can see light thru a paper filter too so ,it proves nothing really ! and once they get wet ( not hard to do w/ rain, humidity ! ) they don't work so well ! their fibers swell up and are never quite the same !
     
  14. 85MondialQV

    85MondialQV Rookie

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  15. AEHaas

    AEHaas Formula 3

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    Sorry but I cannot sit this one out.

    You may get a few extra HP at high RPM but the torque occurs at lower RPM. Air restriction is more pronounced at that higher flow air speed during the higher RPM. The torque will be less effected as the air flow is less at lower RPM. So the benefit is overall minimal in my opinion.

    We who test engine wear know well the effects of having more dirt in the oil. Engine wear is directly proportional to the amount of dirt sucked into the engine during its operation. Even the best OEM air filters allow for more ingress of dust as they age. I used to think that dirtier filters would filter better as the holes were made smaller as dirt stuck to the air pores. Not so, just the opposite occurs. If you follow engine wear it increases with the measured amount of dirt in the air filter and the oil.

    While many people think that thicker oil is more important to decrease engine wear, to a point, nothing is more wrong. It seems that nothing has more effect on engine wear than the cleanliness of the oil. And the dirtiness of oil is not something that oil filters can prevent but for the largest (relatively) of particles in oil.

    Because of my experience I change air filters at around half the scheduled amount of time even though I live/drive in an otherwise “clean” environment. I also change oil more frequently but occasionally do not change the oil filter with every oil change. It does not seem to make any difference for “normal” driving.

    Manufactures tune exhaust and intake systems so as to get the very best performance from their engines. If there was a restriction it would be tuned so that removing the air filter completely may actually decrease performance. Larger and multiple air filters as used today would certainly alleviate intake restrictions in my mind.

    If engine wear is of concern to you as it is for me then OEM paper filters are the only way to go and change them often.

    AEHaas
     
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  16. janmante

    janmante Karting
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    Well we agree that clean oil is a good thing but we do not accept your premise that a K&n would cause more wear nor allow significant dirt inside

    Most wear occurs on start up so do as many racers , enthusiasts have done ( and even GA aircraft owners ) and fit a Moroso ( or other brand , or make your own it is as simple as dirt ,a piston inside slightly pressurized cylinder ) oil accumulator ! it can easily pre-oil the engine and then recharges w'/ the motor running to provide a handy failsafe if there is ever a loss of pressure . it will feed oil to the motor automatically . LOTS of vehicles have been saved by them !
    I plan to see how /where it can be fitted to a F430

    have added these to race cars and M/C's ! they are also used on GA aircraft and boats !
    85% of wear is upon a dry start up .
    so considering one for the F430 spider
    available in 1.5 and 3 quart sizes .
    Three quarts of oil under pressure provides emergency supply instantaneously when needed
    • Air Pressure gauge verifies that Accumulator is ready for use
    • Cold start valve releases oil into cold engine for reduced wear
    • Tapped for 1/2" NPT fitting
    • Can be mounted in any position using Moroso Part No. 23920 Accumulator Mount
    • Includes a manual ball valve
    HOW THE ACCUMULATOR WORKS:
    The Accumulator is tapped to the pressure side of the engines oiling system. When the engine is running, oil pressure forces reserve oil into the accumulator and compresses the air ahead of it.

    If oil pressure should suddenly drop because of hard acceleration, severe cornering or hard braking, the air pressure immediately sends oil to the main galleries. When the danger is over and the pump is once again primed with oil, the oil pressure forces oil back into the Accumulator where it is ready for the next emergency.
    WHAT ARE MOROSO ACCUMULATORS AND HOW ARE THEY USED ON A RACE CAR OR HIGH-PERFORMANCE VEHICLE ENGINE?
    • Oil accumulators are oil storage tanks, connected into the engine s oiling system that have pressurized air on one side, and engine oil on the other side of a movable piston.
    • When engine pressure fluctuates due to oil surging away from the pickup during hard acceleration, severe cornering or hard braking, a Moroso Accumulator equipped engine
    provides an instantaneous supply of oil to the engine.
    • When the fluctuation is over and the oil pump is once again primed with oil, the engine s oil pressure forces this reserve of oil back into the Accumulator. When the engine returns to normal pressure, the Accumulator refills automatically, ready for the next possible occurrence.
    HOW ARE MOROSO ACCUMULATORS CONSTRUCTED?
    • The main body of a Moroso Accumulator is constructed out of heavy-wall, high-pressure hydraulic cylinder aluminum tubing that has an interior bore which has been micro-rolled and polished with a hard coat finish.
    • Inside the Accumulator is a movable, billet aluminum double o-ringed piston, which keeps the air from mixing with the oil.
    • The difference between the Moroso Accumulator and the Moroso Heavy Duty Accumulator is the design and construction of the billet aluminum o-ringed end caps. The Accumulators have end caps that hold in the Accumulator body with high tension snap rings. The end caps on the Heavy Duty Accumulator are actually designed like threaded cups, the body threads into these end caps, encompassing the ends of the Accumulator
    • On all Moroso Accumulators, the end cap on the airside has an air gauge and Schrader valve and on the oil side, a 1 2" NPT fitting end cap for plumbing in the oiling system.
    WHAT ARE DIFFERENT VALVING OPTIONS FOR MOROSO ACCUMULATORS?
    • For an Accumulator to function at their fullest, it needs to have a valve assembly and each Moroso Accumulator comes a manual ball valve. The valve has to be manually opened by hand before starting the car to pre-oil the engine, offering surge protection while the vehicle is in use and will close when the engine is turned off.
    • Moroso offers two styles of optional electric valves: Solenoid Valve (electric), allows remote control of the Accumulator. Solenoid Pressure Valve Kits are the best performing for competition vehicles and are offered in different oil pressure ranges of 15-24 PSI, 35-40 PSI and 55-60 PSI discharge and refill. They have all the benefits of the Solenoid Valve but with quicker reaction times because the Solenoid Pressure Valve allows only the needed volume of oil to be released for faster filling and discharging. An internal sensor electronically activates when engine oil pressure drops below normal
      Any suggestions as to where to plumb this in? where how to connect it ?


    The next good add would be a dual bypass extra filtration system, Amsoil makes a good one ( Sadly, NONE so far for Ferrari's ! ) but anyone could fab up something similar !
    See, you CAN ultrafine filter the oil !
    You said: "The dirtiness of oil is not something that oil filters can prevent but for the largest (relatively) of particles in oil."
    well good news you are mistaken! NOTE ! I have NO connection to Morosso or Amsoil !

    It's just extra external filters , ultra filtration. hard to see how that could hurt anything . it's a bypass filter so it filters a part of the oil supply and eventually 100% goes thru there! some clever Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login chap can work out the details . Just takes some will of purpose !
    I feel better !
    PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
    "The majority of engine wear comes from particles from 5µ to 25µ in size. The problem that arises is that the average full flow filter is only efficient for particles 20µ in size and larger. This means that all those particles under 20µ can pass though the filter and cause wear to your engine. This is where an OIL BYPASS SYSTEM comes into play. Installing a Bypass System on your vehicle will efficiently filter particles down to 2µ in size, effectively reducing the wear on your engine."
    "The Bypass Oil Filter (EaBP) provides the best possible filtration protection against wear and oil degradation. Working in conjunction with the engine's full-flow oil filter, the AMSOIL Ea Bypass Filter operates by filtering oil on a "partial-flow" basis. It draws approximately 10 percent of the oil pump's capacity at any one time and traps the extremely small, wear-causing contaminants that full-flow filters can't remove. The AMSOIL Ea Bypass Filter typically filters all the oil in the system several times an hour, so the engine continuously receives analytically clean oil."
    Single Remote System
    The AMSOIL Single-Remote System is convenient to install; it does not require relocating the full-flow filter. It also takes up less space, which is often the biggest issue when installing any bypass system. With the Single-Remote System the oil is diverted from its normal circuit:

    1. From a pressurized oil port
      or
    2. Through a filter adapter/oil filter cap (available for purchase for specific applications)
      The oil is then pumped through the bypass filter and returned to the oil pan. There are two ways to return the oil to the pan:
      1. Drill into either the oil pan or the rocker arm/valve cover to return the oil
        or
      2. Modify an oil filler cap/purchase a replacement oil filler cap from AMSOIL (available for purchase for specific applications)
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Dual Remote System
    The AMSOIL Dual-Remote System is convenient for servicing filters, placing both the full-flow filter and bypass filter on the same dual-mount. If you have the room in your engine compartment, this is a good option. A spin-on filter adapter fits onto the full-flow filter, through which the oil is both taken and returned. The oil flows through both filters, and the oil returns to the system through the filter adapter.

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  17. AEHaas

    AEHaas Formula 3

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    'Not sure I like the accumulator. If it is filling up with several quarts of oil as you start up your engine it is also robbing oil that would otherwise enter into the oil ways.

    And yes the wear in engines is highest when your engine is started. There are landmark SAE papers that show this. It then slowly decrease as the engine oil temperature stabilizes to the "normal" operating temperature. This takes around 20-30 minutes. Some manufacturers now limit the engine RPM until the engine oil is warmed up so as to minimize wear when the oil is too thick to properly do it's jobs. Cavitation is also an issue when the oil is not up to temperature. The water in your radiator/engine warms up within minutes but the oil takes MUCH longer.

    AEHaas
     
  18. janmante

    janmante Karting
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    No, you misunderstand, you use it BEFORE starting the engine, like push a switch that triggers a electronic solenoid switch/ valve As a pre-oiler so it PREVENTS wear !
    it is filling UP the oil ways and lubricating ALL the bearing surfaces ! So the wear is virtually non existant ! The so called "dry start " phenomenon cannot occur !

    -Independent tests have shown that on street cars, over 85% of engine wear is caused by starting an engine, and that these "dry starts" cause premature engine wear
    • Moroso Accumulators can prevent cold start scuffing by pre-oiling the engine before start up, thus producing a dramatic increase in cylinder wall, piston ring and bearing longevity.
    so it is GIVING oil to the motor then slowly re-fills
    it does NOT divert all the oil to itself ! there is air pressure on the other side of the piston so it will only refill when sufficient oil pressure is present ! any time there is a decrease in oil pressure it automatically feeds oil to the oil system !
    Now, clearly we would need to decide the proper place to plumb in into the oil system so it had minimal effect ( but it has minimal effect anyway on start up ( as far as "taking oil " ) but I'm glad you raised that possible concern it would NOT be an issue . )
    I think it would work quite fine as w/ our dry sump we have plenty of oil capacity and room to absorb briefly a bit more than usual .
    Once filled the accumulator would have zero effect ( Unless needed ) until you discharged it upon the next start up .

    As for oil temp ? Yes i believe Ferrari says do not exceed 4 K RPM until the oil gets to 140 deg F ( F430 )

    Moroso ACCUMULATOR, 3 QUART
    www.moroso.com › accumulator-3-quart-capacity23900


    Three quarts of oil under pressure provides emergency supply instantaneously when needed · Air Pressure gauge verifies that Accumulator is ready for use · Cold ...
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    Moroso Oil Accumulator Part No. 23900
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    Moroso ACCUMULATOR, HD, 1.5 QT
    www.moroso.com › heavy-duty-accumulator-1-5-quart...


    Oil accumulators are oil storage tanks, connected into the engines oiling system that have pressurized air on one side, and engine oil on the other side of a ...
    $280.
     
  19. Mike Morrissey

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  20. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

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    @janmante your lengthy and colourful posts are a pain to read... English is not my mother tongue, which does not help, but more detailed real-life documented results and less unnecessary images would make the read much easier (and the content more useful).

    You've just received two detailed answer from one of Ferrarichat's most respected oil specialist (AEHass), common wisdom would suggest to listen to what he's got to say.

    My brothers and I have already bought 6 of the very same Ferrari model (still have three). I've rebuilt my engine three times, gearbox twice. I've already disassembled all my car (except for a few body panels, the hand-brake, the torque tube and rear axle), yet I am still coming in this Forum begging for advices. I believe it's a much more appropriate way of enjoying FerrariChat.



    PS1 : Dual filter/bypass used to be fitted in older Ferraris but have long been discontinued for good reasons.
    PS2 : I do have a pre-oiler in my own car. The one you recommend would be of little use as it does not have the minimum 6l capacity required to prime my engine.
    PS3 : The above two points were already discussed https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/anyone-use-a-pre-oiling-system.633504/#post-147616767
     
  21. AEHaas

    AEHaas Formula 3

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    I remember changing the oil in either my 550 or 575 Maranello one time when I was going from a 30 to a 20 grade oil. I emptied all external oil lines (detached them) so as to have as pure an oil change as possible in that experiment. All drain sites were open for an extended time. I refilled with the new oil. When I turned on the engine there was maybe 10 seconds of some of the loudest mechanical noises I have ever heard. I mean it was LOUD. Then suddenly it became very quiet as usual, heavenly... An oil analysis later on revealed normal or even sub normal wear so I do not believe pre-oiling is needed. But maybe manufacturers do. Most oil filters have anti drain back valves so there is always oil up in the ways. Or maybe they just do not want customers to hear any engine noise that may result even though it may have no ill effects. 'Not sure.

    AEHaas
     
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  22. otoupalik

    otoupalik Karting

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    We did Blackstone Oil Analysis regularly in EVERY engine we built (race or High HP Street), and saw no noticeable or alarming increase in wear or contaminants from using pleated gauze filters. Race motors would go 40-60 RACE hours and after tear down, we also so no signs of contaminants other than once. That one, the filter that was used was a very cheap imitation filter (supplied by customer). The data sample size is 100+ engines over 15 years.

    Perhaps you missed the point where I detailed (twice I think) that we tested cars without the filter and with stock and with various aftermarket. This was done on nearly all AMG cars, M cars, and 355, 430, 458, 550, 575 cars. The 550 being our own. On ALL of these cars, there were gains with NO airbox and with the higher performance quality air filter as compared to stock.

    But as some will post, this is just opinion! LOL. I guess owning a dynojet 248c in my own tuning facility and employing motorsport specific engineers to collect and analyze said data isn't concrete enough! lol :confused:

    Again, people can do whatever they want with their cars. That is kind the point! So why the group of "factory is enough and always right" are so insistent on trying to scare people who like to tinker is beyond me!

    Thanks
    Brad
     
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  23. janmante

    janmante Karting
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    Who says we do not listen ? we DO !
    we post to get feedback and information but we do not have to believe when it may not be accurate or true or good advice & truth is not about a good reputation !
    We have respect for everyone's positions and opinions and search for the truth .
    We have experts in our corner too ! my friend is a petroleum engineer ! and I often consult w/ my local factory-trained Ferrari tech ! and am on other social media sites We belong to SAE ! our family has lifetime or mechanical repair , techs &, racing experience
    many folks on social media will state an isolated anecdotal experiences and opinions as fact then get indignant if you have the temerity to disagree ! or propose a new/ different alternative ! this is not an empirical, scientific approach! ( or helpful )
    there is much misinformation on F chat and all social media! One needs to sort thru it !
    mayhaps you are confusing listening w/ obeying ?
    Please share the pre-oiler w/ us here ! photos, type etc . Is 6 qts really required ? where does that info come from ? would like to know ! thx !
    Just because a topic has been previously covered does not mean the answers were accurate, empiricly correct or relevant, or conclusive !
    frequently it seems someone will say "well I don't think it is a good idea so there " so, a clash of egos happens ! A new look ,new information a fresh perspective should be welcome !
    but THANK you for mentioning that thread I will ck it out ! , read it all,eagerly ! ( and get back to you ! w/ feedback ! )
     
  24. janmante

    janmante Karting
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    Brilliant ! bravo ! thank you ! well put indeed ! , Jan
     
  25. janmante

    janmante Karting
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    well are you seriously criticizing it because it is too long ? LOL are you part of the TLNR crowd? = Too long not read 180 character limit ! I would suggest you learn to accept my style and try to learn from it we are native English speakers and our command of the language is quite good i think !
    you seem to place anecdotal experience and personal opinion over scientific fact ?
    as English is your second or third language ? you might find the pictures illustrative , informative .
    BTW I did read the link you gave and in NO way does that discussion negate or discourage from the ideas I suggested. not even close !
    I suggest you re-read it ! .
    just because a dual filter was used before does NOT mean it should not be again !
    And maybe you do not understand ? possibly not my fault
    I have taken the time to try to explain better , differently, to help you . you are welcome !

    I am talking about a dual bypass system that filters MUCH finer than the old dual filter systems ! i am talking about a proven system that demonstrably will reduce wear . this system as said , filters down to less than 20u !

    "The majority of engine wear comes from particles from 5µ to 25µ in size. The problem that arises is that the average full-flow filter is only efficient for particles 20µ in size and larger. This means that all those particles under 20µ can pass though the filter and cause wear to your engine. This is where an OIL BYPASS SYSTEM comes into play. Installing a Bypass System on your vehicle will efficiently filter particles down to 2µ in size, effectively reducing the wear on your engine."
    "The Bypass Oil Filter (EaBP) provides the best possible filtration protection against wear and oil degradation. Working in conjunction with the engine's full-flow oil filter, the AMSOIL Ea Bypass Filter operates by filtering oil on a "partial-flow" basis. It draws approximately 10 percent of the oil pump's capacity at any one time and traps the extremely small, wear-causing contaminants that full-flow filters can't remove. The AMSOIL Ea Bypass Filter typically filters all the oil in the system several times an hour, so the engine continuously receives analytically clean oil."
    YES ! it has TWO filters and ONE is a regular filter , one is extra fine size capability! Understand?

    If there are good reasons they were discontinued noone said why, so tell us what is wrong w/ them ?
    You are talking about a Different KIND of dual filter system. did the old one use TWO identical filters ? ! apples and oranges as we say !
    The fine filter bypass systems they sure work quite fine in all other cars ! why would Ferrari be unique?

    amazing ! great ! you have a pre-oiler in your car !
    what car do you have it in ? what model ?
    what brand is the pre oiler ? source ?
    I'm seeking , or talking about a pre oiler for a F430
    maybe I don't need 6 quarts ! ? how much do i need ? How do i know ?
    these ideas were not very completely discussed in the thread you mentioned and your conclusions stated above were not supported by the posts
    We don't do begging for help here in USA No need to. we ask and hopefully, someone will take the time and answer and we do sincerely appreciate every answer even if we disagree and our disagreement is not showing disrespect so you needn't think that . ( If you do ) [​IMG]
     
  26. janmante

    janmante Karting
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    good story ! well in your case I would say you had enough oil cling still on the critical bearing surfaces that it did no damage
    Once again whilst a true anecdotal story result we could say you were lucky!
    you can't fairly say that proves pre-oiling is not needed nor beneficial! IT IS !
    and you cannot generalize from an individual case to a whole population as you have done
    It is well established that 85% of wear is upon a dry start-up.
    So, clearly, a pre-oiler could do much to prevent damage.
    manufacturers if anything, would probably prefer we wear out our cars sooner!
    they are not advocating or fitting pre-oilers !
    Yes many / most filters do have anti-drain back valves ( and hopefully they work !) BUT those do not infer the advantages of a pre-oiler they just help keep some oil in the filter,& , system so it could be circulated thru the motor . ( once it starts ! )
    A pre oiler would pump ,oil thru all the engine all the bearings, bushings, etc so it would not "dry start"
    I'm sure !
     
  27. janmante

    janmante Karting
    BANNED

    Jan 9, 2021
    176
    Full Name:
    jan mante
    good story ! well in your case i would say you had enough oil cling still on the critical bearing surfaces that it did no damage
    BTW, I am grateful to raemin, he responded to my post and referred me to the company that supplied his pre oiler system for his older model Ferrari : Gavarino Engineering
    ( It uses an electric pump , )

    MR raemin, Thank you for your response !
    I am very interested in the Gavarino engineering pre-oiler system and their oil filter bypass system ! It seems it is very close to the one I mentioned!
    I have written to them and will share the response .
    they have systems for most of all the older Ferrari's up to the 360 ! These are well-proven and tested for many years in the Ferrari world apparently ! this should help acceptance I would suspect ?
    Gavarino Engineering LLC: Home
    gavarino.com


    Gavarino Engineering LLC is a premier engineering company headquartered in Dayton, Ohio. Our expertise is designing superior oil filtration systems for ...
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  28. AEHaas

    AEHaas Formula 3

    May 9, 2003
    1,364
    Osprey, Florida
    Full Name:
    Ali E. Haas
    From a much earlier post of mine:

    Effect of Break-In and Operating Conditions on Piston Ring and Cylinder Bore Wear in SI (Spark-Ignition) Engines, Schneider et al:
    The rate of wear is much higher within 15-20 minutes of start-up than after reaching normal operating temperature. There was a lot of data but I conclude that the initial start-up time period (first 20 minutes) result is 100 nanometers of wear whereas the steady state wear rate was only 4 nanometers per hour thereafter. This is in the ASTM test engine running full RPM and load levels. (Hence we should be concerned about start-up oil thickness more than running thickness. This justifies the statement that 95 percent of engine wear occurs just after start-up).

    Mind you there was NO “spike” of wear immediately after engine start up but rather a higher level of wear that gradually decreased as the oil temperature approached that of the normal operating temperature roughly defined as 212F in the sump.

    AEHaas
     
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