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Exhaust questions...

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by roger21, Oct 15, 2019.

  1. roger21

    roger21 Karting

    Aug 13, 2015
    245
    France
    Full Name:
    Stéphane
    Hello everybody,
    I will soon have to go through the “new exhaust” ( central and final sections ) affair...
    Mine has already been refurbished and is definitely dead.I really hesitate about which way I should go,

    Ansa?
    Stainless exhaust manufacturer?

    Both have pros and cons...

    Ansa is tempting as it would keep the look and sound original.
    It is also supposed to be “plug and play” but I am not really confident about that...
    7500€ shipped, which would mean about 10000 installed. Not really a bargain.

    Stainless seems way cheaper (Quicksilver, a UK manufacturer renowned for its reliability, charges 3000€ shipped) but would make me lose the look leaving aside the fact that I am usually not really fond of the stainless sound...
    I have also heard that those exhausts often need a lot of work to make it fit including cutting and welding which may seriously increase the bill.

    I would like to get the more infos and feedbacks before making my decision

    Are Ansa really “more easy” to install? Are they nicely built? How do they last? Do you think they add “value” to the car compared to aftermarket parts?
    Has anyone already tried Quicksilver? Any advice about other European manufacturers? Feelings about the stainless sound, is it louder, do you hear a difference?

    Good/bad experiences?

    Final invoices?


    Thanks a lot for helping me solve that cornelian dilemma!!! :)
     
    dedo tanzi likes this.
  2. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
    422
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    I've had a UK stainless exhaust for 10 years (25.000km) now.

    0) there is a bit of moderate corrosion on the soldering. I presume that regular steel would have been a lot worse.
    1) It's a bit to shiny for sure, and on the 365/400 the exhaust is much more visible than on the 412. So for a 412 this is a no-brainer, for earlier car this could be an issue.
    2) In the long run shiny is better than rust
    3) The car is so low that the exhaust will always collect dust water and will be damaged by rock and debris. Last but not least the raised tail makes it difficult to get rid of condensation during short trips. All in all the exhausts are likely to age fast.
    4) Exhaust manifold do produce a really nicer sound, but heat seems to raise a lot in the engine bay. No definitive assertion here, but on my car anything close to the stainless exhaust suffered a lot from heat while I could not see the same phenomenons on the other cars I can review.
    5) got to agree that not everything is perfectly aligned: the anchor for the rubber rings (sorry for the bad wording) are a bit off. Nothing that would justify to use a welder, but once you notice it, it's annoying.
    6) There is an manufacturer (Orbisoud) in France that makes 10k€ exhausts for the 400 and these are indeed close to perfect. So there are some options for no compromise Stainless Exhaust.

    The UK exhaust is a long lasting bargain (with a few defects).
     
  3. Jasonberkeley

    Jasonberkeley Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 23, 2017
    1,089
    New York, NY
    Full Name:
    Jason Berkeley
    See thread link below for what I did.

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/1984-400i-restored-exhaust.575187/

    I needed new final sections and used new ANSA pieces. They are a bit pricey, but they were plug and play, are original design, and look great.

    I personally think that they help the value, but it depends on the overall condition of your car and what you are looking for. Everyone on here probably has a different opinion on that.
     
  4. Highmiler

    Highmiler Formula Junior

    Dec 8, 2010
    414
    Missouri
    Full Name:
    Greg
    I used Timevalve out of Florida. Like ANSA they are plug and play but freight to France might run the cost up a lot.
     
  5. christc

    christc Karting

    Mar 3, 2013
    226
    Germany
    Hello Roger21,

    I purchased an Ansa system last year from Eurospares in Uk. NOS. I would liked to have the timevalve system but cost for it coming from the US were to high. Tiemevalve ist stainless, original Ansa look and better sound. Finally I went for the Ansa because it was original and attractive in terms of pricing. Speak to Eurospares if they can help. Fitting is quiet easy and should not by far be as high as you quote.
    Also Ansa Classic should be able to help but I have heard different things about quality, therefor bought an new old stock system.

    BR
    Christopher
     
  6. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,239
    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
    Full Name:
    Ken Battle
    When I purchased my car it had one straight pipe on each side all the way back to the rear of the car, past the rear axles. It has a single polished stainless oval muffler (not resonator) with no seams or weld lines visible. It is offset inlet and center outlet with a short ANSA one-to-two outlet on each pipe. The ANSA pieces have a part number but there are no markings on the muffler. I love the look of it.

    Dave Stacey has virtually the same setup on his 400i, except his muffler is a DynoMax (I think, see his posts to be sure).

    As for the sound, I have running many touristic rallies and the driver behind me always comments on the great "music".

    I made one mod a couple of yeas ago. Since the 400i runs about 1.5% CO at idle we often get nasty fumes in the car at low speed. So I had a shop weld in two Corvette cat converters (each good for 400 HP V8) in the middle of the car, roughly under the front seats. Sound was virtually unaffected but exhaust sure is cleaner! These cats have their own metal heat shields. I can set CO by opening the test ports on the outlet of headers.

    I like the look and the sound, MHO.
    Ken
     
  7. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 23, 2007
    4,859
    North Pole AK
  8. roger21

    roger21 Karting

    Aug 13, 2015
    245
    France
    Full Name:
    Stéphane
    Hello all

    Sorry for being so long replying. Long story short, new problems on the car have led to postpone the exhaust question... The 400 should be in the workshop since February but covid decided differently, not sure I will be able to drive it this year.

    So, back to the topic: has any of you heard about an Italian company called http://www.classiche09.com/
     
  9. roger21

    roger21 Karting

    Aug 13, 2015
    245
    France
    Full Name:
    Stéphane
    Hi!

    I had positive feedbacks about the Italian company quoted in my last post.
    I have decided to go with them and ordered my exhaust.
    The central silencers arrived today at the workshop. I haven’t seen them yet but according to my mechanic they look nice and well built... I’ll post pictures as soon as possible.

    As I feel in the “while I’m in there” mood I am thinking about a little cleaning of the underside of the car before we try to make them fit.
    Maybe replacing/refurbishing the metal protective shields which are riveted to the chassis.( #14,19,26,27 on the blueprint)
    Image Unavailable, Please Login Also thinking about cleaning the rust and paint the chassis parts where they are attached.

    if anybody already went this route, any advice about the parts, products, paint to use or how to do it properly are welcome!
     
  10. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
    422
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    I am on the same boat, but not so sure anymore: the insulation is reportedly full of abestos...
     
  11. roger21

    roger21 Karting

    Aug 13, 2015
    245
    France
    Full Name:
    Stéphane
    Ah!
    Well, that means you won’t refurbish the shields but will have to replace them... Do you know where to find some and which safer material would do the job?
    I smoke like a chimney so I am not worried that much about my lungs:D
     
  12. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
    422
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    The insulation is not glued on the metallic part, just "sandwiched" between the fiberglass and sheet of metal, so you can easily remove the rivets salvage the metallic shield and use new insulation. If it were not for the abestos this would be a no brainer...
     
  13. roger21

    roger21 Karting

    Aug 13, 2015
    245
    France
    Full Name:
    Stéphane
    Thank you Raphael!
    Need to go under the car but if memory serves some of the shield are in bad shape...
    As for asbestos I think wearing a protective suit and getting rid of the insulation in the right place might be the way to go.
    I had heard that nothing is as efficient as asbestos... Can it be replaced??? That is the question...
     
  14. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,239
    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
    Full Name:
    Ken Battle
    Fiberglass insulation is a suitable replacement for asbestos. I'm not sure if the Pink Panther material is suitable but there are industrial suppliers that have suitable mat that will compress under the aluminum shields.. Mineral wool is also a good insulator for high temp, but it is more difficult to handle.
    Ken
     
  15. Temerian

    Temerian Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 17, 2014
    151
    Manhattan
    Full Name:
    Rick Temerian
    I am in the process of doing the same thing. I bought 1/2" ceramic fiber blanket from McMaster-Carr. It is a good color match to the original material and has good heat insulating qualities. As to the shields themselves I sandblasted them and painted them with high heat aluminum paint.
     
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  16. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,239
    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
    Full Name:
    Ken Battle
    Temerian
    Yes, Ceramic is a better choice and McMaster-Carr is the place to go.
    Ken
     
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  17. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 8, 2004
    3,119
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Full Name:
    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Rick,

    Do you have a part number for the McMaster ceramic blanket you used?

    Thanks in advance!

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  18. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 8, 2004
    3,119
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Full Name:
    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Stéphane,

    I will be doing this to my car very soon. I researched and tested a few paints for the look and durability and I have narrowed it to two paint types. The first is an off the shelf rattle can paint from VHT called "High Temperature Roll Bar & Chassis Paint; Satin Black". This stuff is fantastic. I tested this paint with and without a primer and found it works and adheres best without a primer. It looks to be enamel based and has great durability. The second option is a 2-part epoxy paint that a buddy of mine will be making for me (he owns a specialty Industrial paint company). I am going to test a bit of this epoxy and if it is a no-go then I will be using the VHT paint.

    I would suggest you do the same and test a few paints to see what you like and how the paint behaves.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  19. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,239
    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
    Full Name:
    Ken Battle
  20. Tojo

    Tojo Formula Junior

    Apr 12, 2002
    365
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Tim
    For my heat shield blankets I used 10mm ceramic blankets. For those without industrial supplies like this near them it's easily bought from eBay.

    Sent from my SM-G935F using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  21. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 8, 2004
    3,119
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Full Name:
    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Ken,

    Thank you for the link. However this item looks to be for a rigid ceramic sheet and not a blanket. However, searching on Ebay as Tim (Tojo) suggested found a number of them:

    https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR6.TRC1.A0.H0.Xceramic+blanket.TRS0&_nkw=ceramic+blanket&_sacat=0

    Thanks again to you and Tim for posting up!

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  22. 400iGuy

    400iGuy Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Aug 26, 2004
    983
    Central Florida
    Full Name:
    Al
    Roger21,
    It sounds like you’ve resolved your questions. I think you’ll have a good outcome.

    I went through this a number of years ago and here’s what I did.... My 400iA has cats, O2 sensors, etc. when I bought it. The FI screwed up and dumped fuel into the right bank heating that cat cherry red melting the aluminum panel and cooking the insulation. I had new panels made that were identical. Bought ceramic insulation from a NASCAR supplier. Got the ANSA OEM center section which fit perfectly. At the same time I had Tim Stanford (Ft Lauderdale) remove all the EPA crap on the engine so it is now as it left the Factory. It’s been great since then! The mufflers have been holding up fine. You just gotta drive’em

    Al
     
  23. roger21

    roger21 Karting

    Aug 13, 2015
    245
    France
    Full Name:
    Stéphane
    Thank you all for your input!!
    I hope I’ll be under the car in a week or two, I will know more about the shape off the insulation plates. salvage or new ones...

    And what about the « cleaning » of the chassis? Was thinking about brushing till the bare metal. Should I think about chemical stripper?
    What would you do?
     
  24. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
    422
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    #24 raemin, Jun 29, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020
    Once the shields are removed, the chassis is easy to access. I doubt you will find any corrosion or horror stories here. A new coat would not hurt, but I'd rather avoid striping the chassis to bare metal.

    As for chassis cleaning, if you've got access to an "outside" car lift, that's obviously the best solution as no mechanic will let you clean the car inside his garage. For the lack of such a lift your best bet is to put your car on a tow truck and go to your favourite car wash. While the car is "high" on the truck you can thoroughly clean the underside. This is much more efficient than buying the dedicated "karsher" product for chassis cleaning.
     
    Ak Jim likes this.
  25. Temerian

    Temerian Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 17, 2014
    151
    Manhattan
    Full Name:
    Rick Temerian

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