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Ferrari 400 resurrection

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by NavFerrari, Jun 13, 2021.

  1. NavFerrari

    NavFerrari Rookie

    Mar 23, 2021
    11
    Aberdeenshire
    Full Name:
    Navin.Aziz
    Dear all,

    I am Navin.Aziz and I am new to the site .I am trying my best to resurrect a Ferrari 400 RHD carburettor car.The car is fighting me every step of the way.The engine has been send for rebuilt .
    The entire paint has been stripped.There was enough filler in it to have kept a filler manufacturer afloat.
    I am trying to separate the chassis and the body.
    Would anyone be able to give me some pointers on that.The car is a 1978 chassis number 21537.
    Any help/advise would be gratefully recieved

    kind regards

    Navin
     
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  3. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 23, 2007
    5,715
    North Pole AK
    Just curious, what is your restoration budget? Also why this particular car as opposed to one that doesn’t require as much work? Not a body expert but I don’t think you can remove the body from the frame like you can on older American cars.
     
  4. NavFerrari

    NavFerrari Rookie

    Mar 23, 2021
    11
    Aberdeenshire
    Full Name:
    Navin.Aziz
    That’s a very profound question Jim.I am often wondering about that myself .Is it really worth all the pain.My restoration budget is about £40k which I am sure I will exceed ..Altogether the car would owe me in excess of £70k when fully done.That is after I am getting the car done in my garage with the help of professionals . It will never ever be worth that which is a shame.
    On another note,I have seen Ferrari 400 body separated from Chassis and one can even get a full chassis separately.So I do kinda believe that they can be separated.If anyone believes otherwise kindly do correct me as I am sure I would not been the only one who would’ve tried it.
    Thanks in advance guys
     
  5. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,379
    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
    Full Name:
    Ken Battle
    Remember the floor is fiberglass.
     
  6. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
    879
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    I would avoid a complete removal of the bodywork: the chassis is so-to-say bullet-proof and as mentioned by @SouthJersey400i the floor is fibreglass. The car definitively has its weak rusty spots, but not in the "underpants". Under the fuel tanks and next to the exhaust manifolds you may have some gremlins, but nothing so severe so as to justify to separate the chassis.

    Your engine is already out, for an extensive overhaul I would attempt to remove the windscreens (it is a challenge), tanks and exhausts. If you are brave the rear-axle...

    Bear in mind that most of the chassis and engine bay is painted black/silver so no point in a complete "body-colour" overspray.
     
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  8. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,379
    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
    Full Name:
    Ken Battle
    Raemin
    Why do you say to be brave about rear axle? I changed the center bearing on drive shaft and had to move the rear axle back for that job and it was not too bad. The bolt from drive shaft to tranny were my biggest issue. My diff has some noise but I have a spare that was professionally rebuilt, so at some time I expect to have to pull the diff. Is that a BIG job?
    Ken
     
  9. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 8, 2004
    3,338
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Full Name:
    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Ken,

    I cannot speak for the 400 series, but removing the diff on the 365 was not really a big deal. Like you said, disconnecting the drive shaft from the transmission was probably the most annoying, as access was a bit limited along with the torque tube bolts. Other than that I removed the drive axles and properly supported the diff and torque tube... then pulled the assembly all the way back as far as I could and it came out without any real drama.

    Perhaps a 400 with an auto transmission is more challenging?

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  10. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
    879
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    If the idea is to respray the wheel arch, removing the whole axle is quite a lot of work (many more links and bushings in the rear than the front). And then enters the while you are there rear suspension overhaul (2k?)

    His target is $40k, the engine alone is 15~20k, let's assume 5k for a broken windscreen, I would save the remaining 20k for the bodywork and save 2k on the rear suspension.
     
  11. ricar116

    ricar116 Formula Junior

    Aug 2, 2005
    396
    Bolivar, Missouri
    Full Name:
    Rick Carr
    What Jim says. Do not take the body off unless you feel there is no choice. The body is glassed to the frame. When I did my 365 I put it on a rotisserie and blasted the bottom. There is room to replace most anything.
     
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  13. NavFerrari

    NavFerrari Rookie

    Mar 23, 2021
    11
    Aberdeenshire
    Full Name:
    Navin.Aziz
    Hi Jim,
    You are right .Thanks for the pointer mate.I have decided to do whatever welding needed without removing the chassis from the body.
    Cheers mate
     
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  14. NavFerrari

    NavFerrari Rookie

    Mar 23, 2021
    11
    Aberdeenshire
    Full Name:
    Navin.Aziz
    Thanks Ricar,
    I did consider putting it on a rotisserie .I have big axle stands and I hoping to do it without one .I might quickly give up on the whole and put it on a rotisserie .
     
  15. NavFerrari

    NavFerrari Rookie

    Mar 23, 2021
    11
    Aberdeenshire
    Full Name:
    Navin.Aziz
    ..Thanks bud
     
  16. NavFerrari

    NavFerrari Rookie

    Mar 23, 2021
    11
    Aberdeenshire
    Full Name:
    Navin.Aziz
    Hi Raemin,
    Thanks mate.The budget is £40k ie in British pounds.You are right about the engine .It is between £15-20k.Hopefully more £15 more than £20.The wheel arches cannot be replaced as it is beyond repair..It’s more like entire fenders and quarter panels .The windscreen is more like £1200 and the rear one is about £2100.
    I had the entire suspension ,both front and rear stripped and hopefully ordered most things necessary for the brakes and the suspension .It’s about £2200 from superperformance ltd.
    The springs and the shocks were in good nick.So decided not to replace them .
    However could not find the brake pistons needed as they no longer manufactured.
     
  17. NavFerrari

    NavFerrari Rookie

    Mar 23, 2021
    11
    Aberdeenshire
    Full Name:
    Navin.Aziz
    #14 NavFerrari, Jun 16, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2021
    Hello

    Thank you for all the help guys .Much appreciated .
    I had stripped the brakes and the suspension and I got most of the parts for the suspension and brake overhaul,I could not get the brake pistons,does anyone have any idea of how to get them.I was also wondering where to get the boot for the steering column at the bulkhead as mine is torn and beyond repair .
    I have a pic ,unfortunately not able to post it here
    Thanks in advance
     
  18. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
    879
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    Could not find myself a boot, so patched-it with UHU-Por and rubber grabbed from motorcycle tire tubes (not sure about my English but you get the idea).

    For the brakes, the caliper are made by ATE and are the same as found on BMW 2000Tii except for the specific spacers meant to accommodate our big discs.
    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/rebuild-rear-brake-calipers.449537/#post-143402109

    The repro windscreen were not as nice as the original one (the defroster was different), so I bought an original one. Newer repro might be better though.
     
  19. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 8, 2004
    3,338
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Full Name:
    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Navin,

    How did you determine that the shocks were in good shape? Just a heads up that on my 365 my shocks "looked" perfectly fine (no leaking, damage, etc) and appeared to work OK as an assembly (e.g. with springs mounted). However, once I removed the Springs and manually manipulated the shock I knew something was not right. After disassembly of the shocks I discovered that almost all of the internal rubber seals degraded over time creating bits of material that eventually plugs or restricts the oil passageways/valves in the shock (see pics). The result is inconsistent shock function. With that said if your shocks were not rebuilt or replaced within the last 10 or so years I would consider rebuilding or replacing them.... now is the time, as it is the easiest to do this now.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     

    Attached Files:

  20. NavFerrari

    NavFerrari Rookie

    Mar 23, 2021
    11
    Aberdeenshire
    Full Name:
    Navin.Aziz
    Hey Sam,
    Thank you so much for that.I had just done a visual inspection before even taking the springs out.There was no leaks or misting so naturally assumed they were alright.This car has definitely not been run since late 80s .Does look like I might need rebuilding it .Will keep you posted after I ve taken it out of the springs .
    Thanks once again .
     
  21. NavFerrari

    NavFerrari Rookie

    Mar 23, 2021
    11
    Aberdeenshire
    Full Name:
    Navin.Aziz
     
  22. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 8, 2004
    3,338
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Full Name:
    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Navin,

    You are most welcome! I, too, thought my shocks were OK for the same reasons you stated. However, I figured since I was refreshing my suspension I thought that the shocks could use some attention too... and I was sure glad I dug deeper, as the shocks simply could not function as intended. The internal valving was simply non functional and this was evident when I removed the springs. Compressing and extending the shock really indicated an issue... which was clearly obvious when I took the shocks apart. The internal valves are one-way valves with various orifices that control the speed with which the oil passes. If the passageways are plugged then the oil does not flow or if they valves are stuck open, then the shock does little dampening. On a side note, our shocks compress easily, but create tremendous resistance upon extension...which is done by the springs. You can rebuild them yourself, as I and a few others have one. However, Koni will not sell you the seals, etc and so you have to research and find the appropriate seals and fabricate a few tools. Fortunately for you, you are on the other side of the pond and so there are numerous KONI approved rebuild centres that can do this work for you with very reasonable pricing. On this side of the pond the options are limited (3 or 4 shops) with pricing all over the map, but with no one shop having consistent positive feedback. For me it was even more complicated, as the North American Koni rebuilders are all in the US and so being in Canada I would have to transport the shocks to and from. This in itself is not a big issue, but my front shocks are NLA and so I had great concerns about the shipments becoming lost or damaged. In the end I am glad that I did the work myself, as now I have a complete understanding of how these shocks work... and have fabricated the specialty tools needed in order to work on them. For me the time and effort investment is gratifying, but also will pay dividends when I rebuild and restore the shocks on my BB... which have 6 in total.

    Best of luck with your refresh/resto efforts!

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
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  23. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
    879
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    You may drop koni an email, they will let you know who can service these shocks in your area. South of France is not exactly "my area", but it was nice to know who in my country they did consider as a reliable rebuilder for my shocks.
     
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  24. GT4SBLUE

    GT4SBLUE Rookie

    Jan 4, 2017
    5
    UK
    Full Name:
    CHRIS JOHN PALING
    Hello Navin
    I am in the UK like you and a new comer to this site with a 400I Auto.
    Re Koni dampers I understand they can be refurbished by Koni.
    Koni UK are in stockport and I understand they have a approved service centre in Newark on Trent.

    My car had a fresh rebuild around 1000 miles prior to my purchase but various companies could not make it run well enough for the owner who gave up after many bills for tuning and sold it to me.
    I had a good deal of time sorting things my self, It was all aux systems not the engine and its now running well.
    Regards.
    Chris.
     
  25. NavFerrari

    NavFerrari Rookie

    Mar 23, 2021
    11
    Aberdeenshire
    Full Name:
    Navin.Aziz
    Hello guys ,

    The shocks in the car were actually shocking ..Thanks for tip mate .I did send them away.Hopefully in about 10 days time I ll receive them back.I ve also send the brake calipers away .Hopefully a similar sort of time for that as well.Will post pics when they are back.At the moment ,the sills are being repaired and the inner tubes in the process of being repaired /replacing ..Will post pics


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  26. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 8, 2004
    3,338
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Full Name:
    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Navin,

    Excellent. Also, I am jealous, as it took me far longer than 10 days to sort out my shocks. You are very fortunate to be in an area where there are shops that cater to such things... and do them well... and for a reasonable price. Where I live basic things like car painting on an older car (any old car) is ridiculously expensive (easily 3-5x more than other parts of the Country) and you have to wait months for the shops to make the time to do it.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  27. Ewan

    Ewan Karting

    Jul 5, 2015
    148
    Dorset, UK
    Good luck with it all Navin. Your budget sounds okay - I’ve spent a similar amount on mine over recent years in a rolling restoration. And I don’t think a final value of £70k is impossible if you do a good job. Early RHD manual 400’s have made that here before, and their styling is becoming increasingly fashionable.
     

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