News

Ferrari F1 System Actuator Stripe down and Repair - Transmission Gearbox

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by spiderscott, Apr 27, 2019.

  1. spiderscott

    spiderscott Formula 3

    Feb 24, 2004
    1,566
    Ratarossa HQ Wokingham, UK
    Full Name:
    Scott
    Guys i've posted this in the 360/430 section but the 612, 599 and Enzo all share a similar F1 setup. So figured I would post it here to as it might help out in future, if you have a Actuator issue on your cars and are curious to know whats inside, what fails and maybe try and fix this yourself.

    There were two previous videos to this (both on my channel) detailing the problem I had with my 360 (no gears able to select and stuck in neutral) and some initial diagnosing of the parts trying to narrow down the potential component and also understanding the system a bit better myself.

     
    NuorderSG, Makuono, billy.gif and 3 others like this.
  2. theunissenguido

    theunissenguido Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Jan 21, 2004
    1,333
    Argent/Brasil/Blgium
    Full Name:
    Guido
    Your are a genius, Scott...but the paint of that car looks terrible.
    Guido
     
    becir1 and spiderscott like this.
  3. spiderscott

    spiderscott Formula 3

    Feb 24, 2004
    1,566
    Ratarossa HQ Wokingham, UK
    Full Name:
    Scott
    LOL, I know shocking hey !!! Did say I use that car as a daily and it wears all the battle scars to prove it :cool:
    It will get some much deserved TLC soon
     
    theunissenguido likes this.
  4. spiderscott

    spiderscott Formula 3

    Feb 24, 2004
    1,566
    Ratarossa HQ Wokingham, UK
    Full Name:
    Scott
  5. spiderscott

    spiderscott Formula 3

    Feb 24, 2004
    1,566
    Ratarossa HQ Wokingham, UK
    Full Name:
    Scott
    Final video on the F1 Actuator for 360, 430, Enzo etc

    In this one I:
    Rebuild and Repair, then reinstallation and all the alignments including the Jig, plus the computer bleeding, centering and full setup process.

    Hope it helps

     
    becir1, billy.gif, mike01606 and 6 others like this.
  6. Flyingbrick242

    Flyingbrick242 Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 26, 2017
    219
    So. Cal
    Sir, You have just exposed all of the mystery and unknown inside the forbidden F1 actuator....!!
    I have always understood the concept behind the operation of the F1 actuator but no one was willing to show the actual workings.
    Well Done my friend...Well Done.!!!
    K//
     
  7. mike01606

    mike01606 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 21, 2012
    756
    Cheshire UK
    Full Name:
    Mike M
    +1....I’ve never been able to find any internal detail on F1 actuators. The closest is Craig Waterman’s work.
    There’s plenty on the Alfa/fiat etc systems.

    A couple of takeaways.....
    If the 360 ones were very unreliable then there would be more to see?

    There’s not too much to be afraid of...
    The seals will take a bit more work but I’ll probably split mine at the end of the year to replace the seals that are leaking on the mechanical actuator end leaking gear oil not hydraulic fluid.

    The biggest blocker to DIY on these systems has been the lack of cost effective set-up software.

    Well done Scott .....
     
    theunissenguido and spiderscott like this.
  8. billy.gif

    billy.gif Karting

    Mar 9, 2017
    224
    Finland
    Funny coincidence but it seems that my F1 actuator gave up while spiderscott was tackling with his problem. As I'm not mechanically inclined nor have needed tools / place to follow this DIY-job of his I have to ask, is there any recommended rebuilding experts in Europe preferably. As I live in Finland.

    My symptoms are (2001 360 Modena F1 with latest non-CS TCU):

    When car is fully warm downshifting from 3rd to 2nd will struggle maybe 3 times out of 4. And if I have to come to stop while F1-brain is trying to downshift the car will go into "N" and system won't select any gear. All it does it keeps trying for three times, you can hear a mechanical sound, like "klonk-klonk-klonk". After letting car to cool down ... sometimes 30 min, sometimes more than an hour ... it eventually will go into 1st gear and I can continue driving. But very soon the problem will reoccur. If I "double tap" the downshift paddle while the system is struggling with downshifting it will go from 3rd to 2nd almost every time, but with noticeably lag.

    As I was having these symptoms twice a row I drove to highway to try out other gears with "NORMAL" mode and then with "SPORT" mode enabled. And when I chose SPORT the system struggled with 6 -> 5 gear change and went to Neutral for a brief moment (3-4 sec) before eventually selecting 5th gear.

    My trusted mechanics said that there's nothing wrong with the hydraulic pressure of the system or any noticeable marks indicating for example that a particular solenoid from the "F1 power unit" would leak and cause the symptoms. For example the "F1 transmission light" has never lit nor blinked, there's no error codes stored in the TCU etc.

    But yeah, I'm having problems to find a good & reputable "refurbisher" for the Actuator of mine. Any recommendations? As from Google I only found this guy:

    https://www.ssautotech.co.uk/

    Does anyone have anything to say about this "one man company"? Is he a member of Ferrari nor Maserati nor Lamborghini communities?
     
    spiderscott likes this.
  9. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
    14,475
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    Send both the power unit, and the actuator completely with lines to GTE engineering. He can test, repair and test again on the bench. Sent a few his way and have never had an issue. Reasonable prices as well.
     
  10. mike01606

    mike01606 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 21, 2012
    756
    Cheshire UK
    Full Name:
    Mike M
    I’ve spoken to Simon at ssautotech and he was very helpful.
    I’d give him a call and see what he says. As above it might be worth sending the whole system off to him so he can test it.
    It would be difficult to use GTE from the U.K. with duties, tax and shipping costs.
     
    spiderscott likes this.
  11. mike01606

    mike01606 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 21, 2012
    756
    Cheshire UK
    Full Name:
    Mike M
    I just noticed you’re in Finland.... but U.K. is within the EU (for now) so should be easier (for now :))....
    If it were me, I want it diagnosing in the car before I started throwing parts and money at it.
    Heat related issue....increased internal leakage as the oil thins, air in system etc etc...



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    spiderscott likes this.
  12. billy.gif

    billy.gif Karting

    Mar 9, 2017
    224
    Finland
    My trusted independent mechanic, who's quite familiar with Ferrari's, has performed several tests with "Leonardo" diagnostic software. There's no abnormal hydraulic pressure loss, no error codes in TCU etc. He says its either actuator or the "F1 power unit", but latter doesn't leak, the solenoids aren't sticking or such. F1 pump is somewhat old but the problem really only occurs when downshifting from 3rd to 2nd, other gears are just fine. IF the pump would be the culprit, wouldn't it affect every single gear change no matter what gear is in?

    I've quite familiar with my car and I can tell when (totally randomly) there's really slight, almost non existent delay when upshifting from 2nd to 3rd. When this delay occurs I'll know that when I have to come "downwards" with gears, I'm in trouble. No one else driving the car really spots the said delay, not even my mechanic.

    I'll keep this tread updated, but I'll contact Simon as someone else said, the additional fees and costs sending something over to USA and getting it back, are really steep - especially from Finland if the Customs spots the particular shipment. Something like +20% from the insured value of said shipment.
     
    spiderscott likes this.
  13. spiderscott

    spiderscott Formula 3

    Feb 24, 2004
    1,566
    Ratarossa HQ Wokingham, UK
    Full Name:
    Scott

    -----

    Couple of question.
    1. When was the F1 fluid last changed on your car ?
    2. Did your Tech with the Leonardo system try a 'Relearn' function for the actuator ?
     
  14. supercarsaviour

    Mar 6, 2019
    1
    Full Name:
    Fred Bloggs
    Sounds like the tech has already done troubleshooting from the pressure side.

    A data logger should show system pressure to be between 40-60ish bar. A healthy system should get approx 2-3 gear changes before re-charging.
    Sounds like there is problem with the main actuator, either seals or a sensor.

    The self-learn that Scott mentioned allows the TCU to learn how much to move the internal gearbox forks. The TCU has a min and max tolerance.
    Ferrari don't recommend to change the oil but it does degrade over time hence when was it changed?

    Had some issues related to a pump, once replaced along with the fluid using the correct Selespeed Petronas oil its been fine.

    I've spoken to Simon on some issues and he rebuilds the actuator internals using higher grade materials. Highly recommend him.
     
    billy.gif likes this.
  15. billy.gif

    billy.gif Karting

    Mar 9, 2017
    224
    Finland
    #15 billy.gif, Jun 20, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
    Could someone please chime in, spiderscott or anyone please help me?

    My F1 actuator came from total overhaul / service from a reputable service shop in UK and at first it did not communicate with car at all, meaning system could not be bled or relearned or anything: The gear selector at the dash was flashing Neutral and the gearbox light was on. And "Leonardo" (or such) tester gave error codes for "Solenoids position not in range" or such.

    After tinkering with the Solenoid connectors with car harness (cleaning them, switching them few times and some other random stuff) and erasing the TCU codes, the dashboard suddenly showed N and gearbox error light was gone. But then...

    When the Actuator is OFF from the gearbox, meaning its internal selector fork is free to move without any resistance the F1 system can be bled and also F1 self relearn (system is going trough gears etc) will perform without any fault, "Test Performed OK".

    But as soon as the Actuator is bolted on the side of the gearbox, the self learn will not perform. It go trough maybe reverse and 1st gear, then it wont go any further. Also once the dashboard showed 5th gear engaged but Autel showed Neutral and mechanically car (Actuator) was in Neutral.

    We did "reset" car by turning the main battery cut off switch off for a while (10min), then I jumped inside the car, started engine and the system selected Reverse and 1st gear without any hesitation. But when I tried to engage 2nd gear - nothing happened.

    Any ideas? Was it mistake to perform the "Self Re Learn" when the Actuator was not attached at the gearbox?
     
  16. jg360

    jg360 Karting

    Feb 8, 2018
    170
    New Jersey
    Full Name:
    John Gurrieri
    I would remove the actuator and start with rebleeding the actuator with the 3 screws. Recent ER and the install. Perform self learn. If still having trouble then it might be one of the sensors


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  17. flash32

    flash32 Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
    1,191
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    Do you think a self centering process with tool is necessary ..

    Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk
     
  18. jg360

    jg360 Karting

    Feb 8, 2018
    170
    New Jersey
    Full Name:
    John Gurrieri
  19. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
    14,475
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    It sound to me like your TCU took a permanent vacation. How many self learns have to tried to do?

    Secondly, a miss installed potentiometer will result in breaking the sensor arm, which will throw the TCU for a loop.

    The no communication is a red flag.
     
  20. billy.gif

    billy.gif Karting

    Mar 9, 2017
    224
    Finland
    Hello!

    The Actuator came from a total overhaul, meaning that the two pontiometers has been tested & verified, the unit has been overhauled and tested, the Actuators "gear selection fork" has been aligned with a proper alignment tool. I've attached the test report for anyone interested.

    Problem is that this overhaul was done by a company based on UK and I'm living in Finland and my trusted mechanics (who has installed few Actuators onto Gallardos, 430's, 360's), has never encountered problem like this. Sadly we do not have this "alignment tool". Installing and a used / sourced / overhauled F1 Actuator unit has been "plug'n play" every time: Attach the actuator onto gearbox, connect all the hoses & wiring and proceed with "bleeding" and then "re learn". When my unit came in, after attaching it, after turning ignition ON, the gear indicator was flashing N, gearbox light was on and could not done any re learning as there was these codes about pontiometer values or ranges or such.
     

    Attached Files:

  21. billy.gif

    billy.gif Karting

    Mar 9, 2017
    224
    Finland
    Thank you sir for your input but as I'm not a native speaker I have some difficulties to fully understand what you're saying.

    -Sir do you mean that all this can harm my Transmission Control Unit (the transmission "brain")?


    Everything went like this:

    1. F1 Actuator + 2 x potentiometers (already installed to the Actuator) arrived from total overhaul / rebuild / test preformed by a company which has years of expertise of overhauling these units from Maseratis to Ferraris to Aston Martins.

    2. My tech (who has years of experience from Ferraris, Maseratis, Lambos) installed the Actuator to the car and then proceed with Ignition ON. Instantly the gear indicator flashed N and the Gearbox light was on. There was 2 codes about Potentiometers not in range or something about Potentiometer values. Bleeding could be done but re-learning could not be done?

    3. My tech removed the Actuator from the car and verified all the connectors, switched the Potentiometers connectors in the car back 'n forth. General tinkering for some time. Then he erased the Potentiometer error codes and gearbox light was gone and the gear indicator did not flash N anymore.

    4. He proceed to try "re learn" when the Actuator was unattached to the gearbox - Test passed trough.

    5. Then he installed the Actuator onto the gearbox and tried "re learn" - It won't pass.
     
  22. jg360

    jg360 Karting

    Feb 8, 2018
    170
    New Jersey
    Full Name:
    John Gurrieri
    You can’t perform a relearn when the actuator is not installed. Try to reset car with battery switch. Clear all codes. I would then try to engage all gears manually. Then try a relearn.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  23. billy.gif

    billy.gif Karting

    Mar 9, 2017
    224
    Finland
    Can the potentiometers somehow be installed wrong way, what I understand potentiometer is, one can open one and turn that little "teeth" manually? Would that affect to the "Potentiometer out of range" type of error message?
     
  24. jg360

    jg360 Karting

    Feb 8, 2018
    170
    New Jersey
    Full Name:
    John Gurrieri
    Yea it can be installed wrong. Make sure the lever arm goes in the groove on the shaft.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
    billy.gif likes this.
  25. billy.gif

    billy.gif Karting

    Mar 9, 2017
    224
    Finland
    All the potentiometers were checked, F1-system has been bled multiple times, gearbox oil changed, my mechanic tried new (used but from a working car) F1 Power Unit and like I said, F1-pump is new. Several re-learns, all which go trough. No error codes in TCU or ECU, F1 hydraulic pressure is good.

    But ... every time after car gets onto normal operating temperatures the F1-system gets stuck when changing from 3rd to 2nd. Meaning it tries three times to down change and if car stops it will go into N and does not change gears. No matter if engine is running or not.

    Clutch was changed (installed the official "Ferrari clutch kit") 10k miles ago and car has seen maybe 75% of highway, 25% urban driving. Reading is around 30%.

    Now he says that only real option is to rebuild gearbox as sticky throw-out bearing would most likely throw some weird reading into the TCU - and its not doing that.

    I'm losing my mind here.
     

Share This Page