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HELP, PLEASE! 348tb alternator upgrade

Discussion in '348/355' started by Lars Ljungstrom, Aug 11, 2019.

  1. Lars Ljungstrom

    Sep 20, 2016
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    Lars Ljungström
    Hi friends,
    First I want to say that I know, there are lots of posts and threads about 348 alternator problems – I've gone through them all. In one of them I read: "On 06/01/1992, a Ferrari Service Campaign was issued that changed the Delco alternator to a Nippondenso unit during production of the 348." Does anyone know exactly what Nippon Denso alternator it was (part number) and if other parts were upgraded together with the alternator, like cables etc AND if it's possible to buy such an upgrade kit today. It seems like the alternator must be exactly the one Ferrari specified, in order to cope with heat, revs etc (maybe special heavy duty voltage regulator and maybe more, only guessing). I would really appreciate your help, thanks a lot in advance!!!
    Lars:)
     
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  2. Ferrarium

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    Ohh I seriously doubt that, it looks like every other Denso alternator I ever saw inside. Just make sure it's the 3 post not the 4 post IN220 regulator. I actually have the 140 amp alternator so I have spare NIB 105 amp parts from Nipendenso and a brand new 140 amp Delco alternator sitting around.

    Few cars that use same alternator that I could tell.
    90-91 Lexus ES250
    89-90 Toyota Camry 2.5L
    86-89 Toyota Celica 2.0L

    m.stojanovic posted this a while back when I was asking also.

    [​IMG]
     
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  3. Ferrarium

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  4. Lars Ljungstrom

    Sep 20, 2016
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    Thanks for your replies!
    What I'm searching for is the part number or specs for the Nippon Denso alternator in the Ferrari service campaign in 1992 (the one Ferrari upgraded to in production). My car has the Motronic, which I think all early cars had.
    Thanks again in advance,
    Lars:)
     
  5. Ferrarium

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  6. Lars Ljungstrom

    Sep 20, 2016
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    Hi again, and thanks for your new reply! Yes, you actually answered me! Just that I hadn't had my morning coffee before I replied;) When you wrote "it's a regular Denso" I misread it for Delco (didn't get that it was a short version for Nippon Denso, I'm not used to these names). OK, so many thanks, it's obviously the kit 70000809 I want. With a little help this morning, I found that out on Eurospares website too. They haven't got it in stock though, but I'll try to find one. Thanks a lot, I'm very grateful for your help!!!
    All the best,
    Lars:)
     
  7. Ferrarium

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    Awesome good luck! Yes Denso EASY to confuse with Delco.

    btw that alternator and most other parts can be cross referenced to other parts that are identical without the Ferrari part number a lot cheaper.
    A LOT of parts are Bosch and if you search the Bosh part number you can get it a lot cheaper. O2 sensor, Ignition Modules, TPS etc all about $60 but if you order with Ferrari part number they are all ab out $350-$600 each and what you get is the same exact Bosch part. Ferrari actually does not make most of the car. Body and Engine and HVAC panel yes but all the rest stuff bolted on is usually something wily available for bearings to electronics to AC suspension, steering etc.

    http://www.ferraridiy.com/parts/348 Parts X Guide PDF.pdf
     
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  8. Lars Ljungstrom

    Sep 20, 2016
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    Lars Ljungström
    Hi again and thanks again!!!
    Great info, I'm gonna try to check cross reference parts from now on.
    Thanks,
    Lars:)
     
  9. Lars Ljungstrom

    Sep 20, 2016
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    Lars Ljungström
    I feel confused and hesitant to buy a new Nippon Denso alternator as there seem to be internal parts that aren't up to the task also in these, according to this link that you added above. https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/348-alternator-removal-rebuild.142329/
    According to this guy both the 348 and 355 Nippon Denso alternators need to be updated. I thought that it was only the Delco alternator that was unreliable and that Ferrari upgraded to Nippon Denso to solve that problem in later 348s and all 355s. Do you, or anybody, know if the new Nippon Denso alternators that are available today, have upgraded parts inside, so you don't risk first paying a lot of money for a new Ferrari-specified alternator and then later need to rebuild it.
    Thanks in advance for any help!
    Lars:)
     
  10. Ferrarium

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    It's just a regular old nipendenso alternator. No special parts or bearings at all in them. These days parts are cheaply made so they fail.
    The same thing would happen in any car using it, ts not a Ferrari issue.

    I don't think regitar makes those anymore though. I suspect the new alternators have the cheapest stuff in it.

    If your concerned spend time sourcing original denso parts incase you ever need them, I did. Rebuild shops will use cheap stuff generally I think.

    The best bet is to put a heat shield for the alternator. Heat affects them, that and oil leaks on them.

    If you have a 348 upgrading to the 140 amp is the optimal solution to me. Hard to find as it uses a different bracket but brackets are easy to fab up actually. I dont think many people did that upgrade.

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  11. Lars Ljungstrom

    Sep 20, 2016
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    Lars Ljungström
    Thanks again!
    I thought the "Ferrari specified" Nippon Denso had at least a heavy duty voltage regulator, that stood up to high revs and heat, as it was supposed to solve their alternator problems. Somebody said in a post: "... a Nippondenso alternator with a bad internal part that Nippondenso ONLY provides to Ferrari and Ferrari will only sell an ENTIRE NEW ALTERNATOR and not simply the part for a rebuild".

    By the way, my 348tb is a 1990 model year and I suppose it's got the Motronic 2.5. Seems like most alternators are listed for Motronic 2.7 – would it matter?

    What about rebuilding the original Delco alternator with a heavy duty voltage regulator and maybe some other upgraded parts if needed?

    Couldn't there be any disadvantages with fitting a 140 A alternator? Like the electrical system getting too much "power". Thought I read something about the battery lamp doming on because of this.

    Lars:)
     
  12. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic Formula 3
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    Those are urban legends. I upgraded to the 140 A Denso a few years ago. I was lucky to find a brand new complete kit (by Ferrari) on Ebay including brackets etc.

    This is the best upgrade for the 348. The Denso number on the alternator is 101211-7580 and the Ferrari number for the kit is 70000807. You can check with Eurospares whether they have this kit (their website states "enquire"). It will not be a new one but they may be able to put together a used kit. Otherwise, you can look on Ebay for Ferrari 348 alternator but make sure it is a 101211-7580 one.

    Denso alternators are very easy to rebuild and all parts are available. The tool you need for the rebuild is practically just one screwdriver (once you remove the rear cover, 3 small nuts).
     
  13. m.stojanovic

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  14. Lars Ljungstrom

    Sep 20, 2016
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    Lars Ljungström
    Many thanks for this info!
    I was intending to try to find a Nippon Denso 70000809, which I thought was the alternator in Ferrari's upgrade kit and is the same 105A as my Delco (I think). Is the 140A for another car, 355 maybe? Or was the 140A available for the 348? Anyway, as both of you have fitted it and recommend it, I think I'll take your advice and try to find a 140 A Denso. Except for the bracket, will I need different cables than the ones I have for my original Delco?

    As already asked, I don't know if the Motronic generation should be taken into account – I guess mine is 2.5, it's model year 1990?

    Thanks also for the link and that you checked with Eurospares:)

    Lars:)
     
  15. Lars Ljungstrom

    Sep 20, 2016
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    I just chatted with this Italian guy and he says that there's no 140A alternator for 348. He says in that case everything needs to be rebuilt. He says if mine is 105A, then 120A is maximum.
     
  16. Lars Ljungstrom

    Sep 20, 2016
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  17. Ferrarium

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    #17 Ferrarium, Aug 13, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
    Nope all the same parts in Ferrari Denso as in Hondas.

    As far as I know even if you have the 105 amp Denso you need new brackets the alternator body is larger. I believe that correct as it came with new shorter brackets. I also have the Denso 140 amp.

    I have a new in box 180 amp delco if you need it.

    There is a 140 amp Denso, it's in my car, I gave you the part number, simply loook it up on Ricambi. It is physically larger as stated. It's not the 105 re-wound. Perhaps find another Italian to ask questions to :)

    70000807 is the Ferrari 140 amp kit not the alternator number. Miro listed details above please go read it.


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  18. Ferrarium

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    #18 Ferrarium, Aug 13, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
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  19. m.stojanovic

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    The 140A alternator, p/n 156235, complete kit 70000807, was the last upgrade for the 348 (after the upgrade to 105A Denso). The Motronic version does not matter. The wiring looms for the Densos (105A and 140A) are the same but different from the loom (different small multi-pin connector to the alternator only) for the Delco alternator. You can probably get a pigtail connector (round type, 3-pin) for the Denso alternators (Toyotas) and replace the existing Delco connector.

    Both, lower and upper brackets for the Denso alternators are different from the brackets for the Delco. As between the 105A and 140A Densos, only the upper brackets are different - the one for the 140A Denso is slightly shorter than the one for the 105A Denso. However, the Eurospares website does not show the part number for the shorter upper bracket, only for the longer one used for the 105A Denso. Looks like the shorter bracket was only supplied as part of the kit 70000807 which included:

    140A Denso
    Shorter Upper Bracket
    Lower Bracket (but this is same as for the 105A Denso)
    Wiring Loom for Denso (required only for upgrades from Delco but included anyway)
    Some Bolts & Nuts

    PS. Be careful when reading the many "Delco" and "Denso".
     
  20. Lars Ljungstrom

    Sep 20, 2016
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    Hi again,
    Thank you so much for your very clarifying and detailed information! I'm in contact with Eurospares and the 140A Denso is not available anymore but they have the 105A Denso both new and used. As you write I obviously need to order a connector too. I think the 105A Denso will be fine. Do you think I should try and get a 140A instead? What would the benefits be? Would it work better on high revs (I drive a lot at very high revs) and heat?
     
  21. m.stojanovic

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    If your car currently has a Delco, you also have to order lower and upper brackets for the Denso (unless you plan to fabricate them).

    As I understand, the reason for the last upgrade to 140A were frequent failures of the 105A alternators, both Delco and Denso. In my opinion, the failures were mostly caused by the two radiator fans coming on simultaneously which causes a spike of some 100A on their start-up. If, for example, the engine related electrics/electronics (fuel pumps, injectors etc.) are drawing about 30A, the climate blower fan some 8A, the lights some 20A, the oil cooler fan some 15A etc., there is already some 60-70 amps being taken from the alternator. When then the two rad fans come on with their initial spike of 100A, we are talking about 160-170 amp spike (and that does not include the AC condenser fan or a powerful stereo). I believe that such current spikes, that are well beyond the alternator's 105A capacity eventually blow its diodes. The alternator is especially vulnerable when running with a battery which is not fully charged (or with an older battery) because the battery is not capable of covering the mentioned current (ampere) spikes.

    Even though I have installed a 140A alternator, I have also added PWM controllers to prevent high amps spikes on the fans start-ups (see the thread "348 Cooling Fan Issue"). A simpler way would be to add a timer (about 5 sec) to one of the fan relays to delay the start of one of the rad fans. This would not be as good protection as the PWM controllers but it would cut the fan start-up ampere spikes down to half.

    Otherwise, the revs do not affect the alternator's power generation. At higher revs, the alternator actually has an easier job producing the amps - it works at considerably reduced current through its exciter coil (reduced by the voltage regulator) which means less stress on the regulator and the exciter coil. The maximum stress on the voltage regulator is at idle when it sends full current to the exciter coil. High revs can, however, affect the alternator bearings but they rarely fail. I think they are designed for some 30,000 rpm.
     
  22. Lars Ljungstrom

    Sep 20, 2016
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    WOW, that was extremely interesting reading!!! If you haven't already, you ought to put this up in a separate thread in the 348 section. I think this is something all 348-owners should read and learn!
    Thanks very much again!!!
    Lars:)
     
  23. Ferrarium

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    #23 Ferrarium, Aug 14, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
    Its all out here already actually, if you use the search feature you will find much of it. Or is typical car operation in terms of how alternators work it's not Ferrari specific. For example https://www.onallcylinders.com/2012/10/17/how-to-choose-an-alternator/

    I mentioned it before, I will one more time. I have a new 180 amp Delco sitting in a box I never used if you want it.

    If your worried about the alternator there are many thing I would worry about before that. The cars are 25+ years old, parts corrode, degrade and wear. Check this for a potential list of things to worry about. https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/146759476/

    Good luck with your car! :)
     
  24. Lars Ljungstrom

    Sep 20, 2016
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    Thanks! I'm trying to find a 140A Nippon Denso. I'm worried about the alternator because my original one plus 2 new ones broke down within half a year and I don't want to risk to buy a new one that will break down too (and btw I don't want to worry about anything else;). Thanks a lot for all input and for your good luck wishes! :)
     
  25. Ferrarium

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