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360 My experience with AV TUNE

Discussion in '360/430' started by clean512, Jan 14, 2022.

  1. clean512

    clean512 Formula 3
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    So I have had the av/360 trev tune now for about 14 months. Everything is perfectly working.
    Let me back up a bit I reached out to trev after reading adlosus write up on his website and emailed them at the same time.
    I wrote a nice email stating my goals with my car my history of what I do in the automotive field. Sometimes I feel how you talk to people they can connect quickly on the relationship on your project
    Any ways sent my ecu to av and the longest part was the shipping.
    Received them back and plugged them in and first start started right up.
    Small hiccup since my car was a 99 and the f1 circuit was related to the braklight circuit where my F1 light came on. Called trev and spoke and super helpful on figuring this out. And shipped my ecu back to his buddy in the states who helped with the tune. And got that small fix all done.
    No light and the power is freaking incredible what it does compared to the stock maps.
    I have the CS exhaust and cs lids and maf to all help with the tune. The drive ability is stock until you put your foot in it where some of the magic that trev does on how quick the throttle reacts and it just puts a grin on your face every time I drive it.
    I'm no way affiliated with av or trev just a real dude giving a real honest opinion.
    Happy motoring lads.
     
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  3. GCalo

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    Not surprised to hear this, Josh
     
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  4. 02360spider

    02360spider Formula 3

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    I need to go through Trevor for a tune

    Sent from my SM-G996U1 using Tapatalk
     
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  5. Scott98

    Scott98 Formula 3
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    They did the CS tune on my ECUs. Super pleased with the result. They are hands down the best in the business.
     
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  6. DiabloTerr

    DiabloTerr Formula Junior

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    Cool! Has anyone put their car on a Dyno so we can see some before and after numbers?
     
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  8. clean512

    clean512 Formula 3
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    I would gladly dyno my car now but sorry did not do any before. The closest dyno to me is 1hr away though
     
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  9. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    Thank you so much Josh for you nice comments!
     
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  10. GCalo

    GCalo F1 Veteran

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    I paid him $50.00, Trev, to say that!!!

    But the accolades are well worth it
     
  11. clean512

    clean512 Formula 3
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    What Greg no one payed me
     
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  13. GCalo

    GCalo F1 Veteran

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    I gave you the $50.00, Josh, to say those nice things about Trev!!!!
     
  14. GCalo

    GCalo F1 Veteran

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    I tried to inject some levity here which I believe may have disturbed or offended Josh for which I am sorry.

    I did not intend to do so.

    Josh's contributions are always very valuable as are his sincere comments about Trev

    Trev is of outstanding credit, and again, my comments were not intended to demean Trev either

    Most on this site know of Trev's incredible work.

    So both please accept my apologies if the comments were misplaced and were offensive.
     
  15. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    #12 360trev, Jan 14, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022

    I'd like this to be a bit of an educational thread as I think its important that anyone considering doing any performance oriented upgrades to their car understand first and foremost the current state of their car and what they can do to bring it back to a good standard before messing with engine software.

    The thing about this subject of "dyno sheets" of this is there are big factors impacting a single car that many people never consider. (they will come I promise but lets first get into the science bit)...

    Lets just walk through some of this...

    Q. How much does a _stock_ 360 make?!?!

    Even to answer this requires a lot of discussion. I always like to make people aware of these things so they can go into all of this discussion with their eye "open" and start to think about bringing their car into 'peak factory performance spec' before doing anything else.

    Firstly there are different market specifications to deal with. Without doubt the market for early 360's with the potential for the absolute BEST power output (which may have been the market Ferrari dyno'd their cars in) was the Middle East. This was because they had NO emissions laws/controls back in the day. So they actually where fitted by Ferrari with nearly NO emissions kit at all, no header cats (just like an early US car) but also (incredibly!) no MAIN cats either, no cats at all in fact! Imagine what a 'stock' 360 spec'd with the optional factory sports exhaust would have sounded like back in Dubai in 1999 .... whoa!

    Q. Did you know that US spec main cats are larger and heavier in later years than the EU equivalents?

    So even to compare stock cars is an absolute challenge and that's before we get to the options list or any aged components which could be impacting performance today... See, the stock Back box fitted to the 360 is pretty restrictive compared to the optional Sports Exhaust version, its so different in fact its easily apparent when you drive one back to back the performance is better.

    Ok, so lets approach even engine build characteristics which I think are less well understood by many.. This is a tricky subject to get much information on but did you know how much "tolerance" is allowed "within acceptable" range when the 360 engines where built up at the factory? This one may surprise you...

    As an example let us start with the Pankl (Titanium) connecting rods, they where classified into groupings sorted by manufacturing weight. When components get made due to the manufacturing process not all of them are exactly to "blueprint spec", some are heavier and some are lighter. Ferrari tried to at least sort these into groups so that there was no major imbalances between matches sets. Matched in groups... Lets look at how this was done.
    .. E.g. from Group A (best) or Group G (worst).
    Group A: 380g to 384g, Group B: 384g to 388g
    Group C: 388g to 392g, Group D: 392g to 396g
    Group E: 396g to 400g, Group F: 400g to 404g
    Group G: 404g to 408g


    So to give you some perspective of the "variance" just on the weight of the set of connecting rods alone in the engine of your 360 vs your friends...
    If you where in Group A and just happened to get the BEST weight set, you'd have a weight of 380g x 8 cylinders = 3040g.
    If you where in Group G at the WORST end of the spectrum could be 408g x 8 cylinders = 3,264g. That's no F1 level of tolerance right there but it is one that's required for mass production. And we haven't even talked about differences with Pistons, Crankshaft, etc. etc. For example, the pistons where divided into two size classes, each of which is distinguished by a color (pink and green), on the basis of the machining tolerances. So again you could be in the best group or the worst group...

    So as you can see the difference between the best set and the worst set (still within acceptable range) 224g's (!)... Doesn't sound like much until you appreciate that these thing are moving the pistons up and down at up to 8,600 revolutions per minute, or said another way they go up and down at peak rpm 143 times in 1 Second. Crazy and insane to think about.

    In other words what I am trying to stress is not all engine's are built 'equal'. This can very much impact on the performance even from new but there are more things which muddy the water than this, many more (!) lets read on...

    Q. Cam Timing after a Belt Change

    AV Engineering have discussed this at great length in many video's but the Cam Belt timing is one of those area's where if done in sloppy way (but still 'within tolerance') you can loose a LOT of power...

    We are not talking about 1-2hp here, it cam be as much as 20hp (typical) to a worst case of a badly done job of 40hp (!). Sometimes Aldous and factory trained master tech and overall guru Eddie Blasi have observed engines where cam timing marks are way out of position too (!) and that's straight from the factory, so what hope do you have? Well there is another way to get perfect timing but it takes much effort and more time. You whip off the cam covers and use a dial gauge with a accurate method of measuring degree's. That method is the use of a degree wheel and its essential if you want to do high performance engine work. It helps to ensure ignition timing and cam degreeing are accurately configure and typically used when blueprinting an engine. Some wheels even have pointer that attaches to the center case bolt.

    When you think about it more imagine if the degree's are 'out' what does that actually do to performance? It actually makes all of the factory maps 'slightly skewed'. You also notice a big difference in engine 'smoothness' if your cam timing is properly degreed up with great precision. Why? Well think back to the fact that we have a LEFT and RIGHT bank, if they are not perfectly in tune with each other they are 'out of balance' and basically fight each other. Not good for engine power or smooth power delivery...

    Q. What about maintenance and age?

    This is another 'big one'... You have so many important elements here that MUST be in perfect condition before you consider doing ANYTHING related to performance. Lets look at the main items and see why they are important.

    1. Routine Servicing :
    A well maintained, fresh oil engine, fresh air filters (with no restrictions from dust, dirt and debris causing airflow restrictions and pressure drops between the intake and air flow meters) will always run much better. Ensure services are done without compromise.

    2. Mass air flow meters:
    These are the primary source of metering a given volume of air into your engine so that the engine can work out an accurate Air To Fuel ratio. Remember that the engine is an Air Pump and consumes both air and fuel to produce power. If the AFM's are reading inaccurately your fuel mixtures will be off and the car will perform badly. In the worst case it will raise a CEL and go back to static 'presets' based on rpm and load, this is called Open loop. In open loop mode, the engine management software cannot read its sensors so it just runs off a set of preset values based on where the throttle position, rpm and so on.

    3. Primary (Wideband LSU4.2) O2 Sensors:
    These are another primary source of fuel control. This is a linear sensor generating a voltage signal which depends on the concentration of unburnt oxygen in the exhaust gases. This is very closely related to the air/fuel ratio in the intake manifold or to the excess air factor in the air/fuel mixture.They are therefore used to allow the ecm (engine management computer) to work out the difference between what "actually" happened (wrt prior engine combustion events) by measuring accurately how much air is in the tailpipe. The software can then adapt up to a preset threshold (either -20% or + 20%) fueling for if for some reason the calculations used to derive an AFR where based on incorrect assumptions (for example one of many reasons could include unmetered air leaks entering the system, e.g. due to failed intake or mainfold gaskets for example, in this case the ratio or fuel mix could be different to what the computer expects so adaption occurs). Also since fueling is never exactly precise this process is happening many times a second. Another thing worth noting is that Primary O2's as they age they get slower to respond so they cannot keep up with the demands of adapting fuel quick enough.

    4. Ignition Coil Packs & Spark Plugs :
    For any given fuel mixture we still need to get that mixture ignited and that very much depends on having good coils and good fresh spark plugs. Fouled or bad plugs can blunt performance by not igniting the mixture as they should be.

    5. Fuel Injectors & Fuel Pressure:
    Ensuring you cars fuel system is in peak operating condition is very important for performance. There is a fixed pressure regular fitted inside the fuel tank which sets pressure at a static 3.6 bar and by the time it reaches the fuel rail that figure is 3.45 bar. There is in fact a schroder valve on the fuel rail which can be used to test pressure. A Pressure test is an important consideration to verify because there are NO sensors on 360's which can measure fuel pressure until later spec cars where introduced and even then it was only used as an emissions thing, in this case to detect if you had not screwed your gas cap on properly and raise a CEL on your dash. Since most 360's are now approaching 20 years old I am now recommending if they haven't ever been checked to get the fuel injectors sent away for testing of the spray pattern (any blockages, varnish deposits cleaned, etc.) to ensure they are operating perfectly. They are a key component and need to be operating to spec.

    6. Battery Condition :
    Most people have no idea how important good condition battery is to achieving peak performance. Lets look at it another way, a fuel injector for example will yield a different flow of fuel at low voltages vs high ones (and yes for this reason there is a calibration which allows the software to make adjustments for battery voltage), same goes for coil packs, the energy and voltages required to combust the fuel is high and this entire process works better with a fresh battery.

    7. Fresh fuel and highest octane available :
    Even after just a few weeks fuel starts to loose its octane and this impacts performance and can cause 'detonation' to occur, you don't want this to happen, its basically uncontrolled explosions and they happen at the wrong point in the cycle, if it gets very bad it can cause engine damage. At the very least bad fuel will blunt performance and lead to software algorithms pulling timing and reducing performance to help protect the engine.

    So as you can see there is quite a list of "prior-conditions" necessary to ensure your engine is operating in its peak performance BEFORE you begin any next steps.

    What does all of this REALLY mean .... Lets work out so 'scenario's to see how all this impacts performance...

    Scenario's (all based on USA cars on USA octane fuel and USA factory maps on a 1999-2001 MY without header cats):

    Best stock 360 with Factory optional (CS) sports exhaust : 400hp (factory stock claimed)

    1. Actual figure with typical aftermarket sports exhaust [with bypass valving]: 400hp
    2. Perfect timed up belt job (no loss): 400hp
    3. Best engine build, great plugs, coils, afm's, high octane fuel, etc. (no loss): 400hp @ crankshaft
    Actual power: 400hp @ crankshaft ( with a 15% drivetrain loss ) : ~340hp

    Average stock 360 with Factory optional (CS) sports exhaust : 400hp (factory stock claimed)
    1. Actual figure with typical aftermarket sports exhaust [without box bypass]: 400hp
    2. Average timed up belt job (-15hp to -30hp worst case): -10hp : 390hp
    3. Average plugs, coils, afm's, ok fuel, etc. (-10hp): 380hp @ crankshaft
    4. Actual power: 380hp @ crankshaft ( with a 15% drivetrain loss ) : ~325hp

    Average stock 360 with aftermarket sports exhaust : 405hp (+5hp over stock claimed)
    1. Actual figure with typical aftermarket sports exhaust [without box bypass]: 395hp
    2. Average timed up belt job (-15hp to -30hp worst case): -10hp : 385hp
    3. Average plugs, coils, afm's, ok fuel, etc. (-10hp): 375hp @ crankshaft <------------ typical baseline with aftermarket sports exhaust
    Actual power: 375hp @ crankshaft ( with a 15% drivetrain loss ) : ~320hp

    Average stock 360 : 400hp (stock claimed)
    1. -15hp from use of stock exhaust (-15hp) : 385hp
    2. Average timed up belt job (-15hp to -30hp worst case): -10hp loss : 375hp
    3. Average plugs, coils, afm's, etc. (-10hp): 365hp @ crankshaft <------------ typical baseline on non-sports exhaust
    Actual power: 365hp @ crankshaft ( with a 15% drivetrain loss ) : ~310hp

    Badly maintained 360 : 400hp (stock claimed)
    1. -15hp from use of stock exhaust (-15hp) : 385hp
    2. Poor timed up belt job (-15hp to -30hp worst case): -30hp loss: 355hp
    3. Poor plugs, coils, afm's, etc. (-10hp to -20hp *typical worst case without cels): 335hp @ crankshaft
    Actual power: 335hp @ crankshaft ( with a 15% drivetrain loss ) : ~285hp (yikes!!!!!)

    Note: *If your post 2001+ you loose another 10-15hp off these figures
    Note: ** all these figures are estimates so your car may vary **

    Next I'll post about how much you can improve this....
     
  16. clean512

    clean512 Formula 3
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    Thanks Greg. Talk soon and get those fuel pumps done so we can go cruise
     
  17. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    So as you can see ~285rwhp to ~340rwhp is quite some difference.

    Getting your cars condition right therefore yields a significant noticeable improvement in performance.

    OK, so what yields the best performance upgrades?

    Precisely timed engine
    As discussed getting your engine timed up accurately has many benefits, reduces stresses and improves both power and smooth running.

    Reduced back pressure exhaust
    I've discussed this topic countless times before but IMHO the Challenge Stradale (or modified F430 stock) back box is one of the best out there because of the bypass of the box when valves are open, this works completely differently to the vast majority of aftermarket exhausts out there and therefore gives one of the best low back pressure rates vs even most aftermarket systems.

    Cats & Headers
    Sports cats will make a big difference to power and gain significant power and torque on their own but as soon as you do both cats and bypass back box style exhaust you've "resolved" the issues of flow on the exhaust side.

    Air Flow Meters
    The next restriction becomes the intake itself (!). So take for instance the adoption of the stock Air Flow Meters, even when new they (along with stock non-sports exhaust) both combined to cause a tailing off of power around 1k rpms before the limiter was even reached. So once you resolve the exhaust the next restriction does of course before the intake. It can flow a peak airflow of ~900kg/h per intake, at > 7,500rpm the engine needs a lot of air and any restrictions will blunt performance. The thing about air flow meters that many don't appreciate is that they artificially restrict max power to the maximum flow rates that they can achieve in terms of digital "voltage". What this means at high RPM's (or on turbo charged cars high boost) your AFM is going to be a weak link if its not sized correctly to yield highest kg/h you can achieve at the red line. The F430 AFM's flow +300kg/h at peak so that prevents the power dipping because the ECM's airflow isn't getting clipped, its no longer the restriction, that's now moved elsewhere...Especially if you do intake mods like a Challenge intake pipe and free flowing panel filters to reduce restrictions even more.

    Summary:
    If your serious about yielding the best performance from your car you start with these. So header cat delete (which many people do for reliability reasons), sports cats and larger AFM's can improve both intake restrictions AND exhaust restrictions to yield a significantly improved VE (volumetric efficiency), all traditional tuning methods are going to provide all the necessary improvements that a well designed tune can take advantage of.

    These optimal 'per-conditions' help to make more power because you've now improved beyond existing programming, you've removed intake and exhaust restrictions but until now all of this is not known about by the ECU (!) .. It can adapt fueling reasonably well but its default programming now becomes the restriction to making more power, its needs re-calibration to be done to match whats been done.

    In fact the minute you enlarge the AFM's you need to re-calibrate anyway to match kg/h of airflow to a given voltage between 0-5V otherwise the ecu doesn't know how to interpret that voltage (in fact its interpreting it WRONGLY based on the calibration it thinks is right for a -4mm diameter AFM which flow -300kg less air at peak) .
     
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  18. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    #15 360trev, Jan 14, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022
    So lets look at those numbers again with these upgrades..

    MY 1999 360 with enlarged AFM's, Sports Cats, Panel Air filter, CS or bypass style exhaust

    Best stock 360 with Factory optional (CS) sports exhaust, enlarged airflow meters, sports cats : 440-450hp (tuned)

    1. Actual figure with CS sports exhaust [with bypass valving]: 440hp
    2. Perfect timed up belt job (no loss): 440hp
    3. Best engine build, great plugs, coils, afm's, high octane fuel, etc. (no loss): 440hp @ crankshaft
    Actual power: 440hp @ crankshaft ( with a 15% drivetrain loss ) : ~375hp

    So by comparison...

    Badly maintained 360 : 400hp (stock claimed)
    1. -15hp from use of stock exhaust [restricted] (-15hp) : 385hp
    2. Poor timed up belt job (-15hp to -30hp worst case): -30hp loss: 355hp
    3. Poor plugs, coils, afm's, etc. (-10hp to -20hp *typical worst case without cels): 335hp @ crankshaft
    Actual power: 335hp @ crankshaft ( with a 15% drivetrain loss ) : ~285hp (yikes!!!!!)

    The differential between a poorly maintained, badly timed 360 and a well sorted example can be +/- a shocking peak 100hp either way!

    I *hate* peak power figures though and in the next post I'll explain why and what you should be looking for beyond peak figures...
     
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  19. FLHR

    FLHR Rookie

    Jan 13, 2022
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    Hi Trev I’m new to the forum and trying to reach out to you about a recent tune and for some reason I can’t figure bout how to do it through the forum. Is there a text number or email I could use? Thanks. Jeff Romig
     
  20. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    Hello Jeff, I don't know who did what and when (i.e no context) if AV did it pm them, if someone else did it you can PM (send a private message), click on top right circle avatar picture and then 'conversations' from the menu, you should be able to do it from there.
     
  21. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    #18 360trev, Jan 15, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2022
    Just trying to now find dyno sheets which can back up some of these figures...

    Here's an interesting one done in 2003..
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    This fits quite well with my 'estimated Stock 360 @ crank'...

    Average stock 360 : 400hp (stock claimed)
    1. -15hp from use of stock exhaust (-15hp) : 385hp
    2. Average timed up belt job (-15hp to -30hp worst case): -10hp loss : 375hp
    3. Average plugs, coils, afm's, etc. (-10hp): 365hp @ crankshaft <------------ typical baseline on non-sports exhaust
    Actual power: 365hp @ crankshaft ( with a 15% drivetrain loss ) : ~310hp

    Source of original (very old) dyno pull still available on web archive..:
    http://web.archive.org/web/20060115001630/http://www.ktrperformance.com/services/Dyno_Graphs/Other/graph_360modena_stock.htm

    Note: ** many variables can impact actual power output from any given vehicle but this is just trying to calculate a reasonable 'ballpack'. Actual figures on a specific vehicle vary due to all these given factors:
     
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  22. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    #19 360trev, Jan 15, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2022
    And collecting some dyno information from various other posts for comparison... No sheet this time but lets look anyway...

    source:
    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/360-cs-dyno-run-results.3808/

    2004 360 Challenge-Stradale (US Version)
    Assembly Number: 50457
    Miles: 1157 miles
    Curb Weight: 3000lb (owner’s manual) / 3096lb (measured)
    HP (flywheel): 409 hp / 8500 rpm (owner’s manual)
    Torque (flywheel): 275 lb. ft. / 4750 rpm (owner’s manual)

    Dyno: Mustang Dyne (DynoAuthority http://www.dynoauthority.com/ )
    Measurement Standard: SAE (J1349)
    Max. HP (rear wheels): 320.4 HP @ 8500 RPM
    Max. Torque (rear wheel): 233.2 Ft-lbs @ 5750 RPM
    Parasitic Torque: 32 ft-lbs (measured through coast-down run)
    Coast-down Loss: 14%

    Flywheel HP “Discussion”:
    409HP would mean a 21% driveline loss (not reasonable ~15% is standard)
    391HP with 18% driveline loss (estimate by operator based on coast-down loss)

    Possible reasons we don’t see claimed HP (besides different standards used):
    - engine is relative new and still tight
    - air box RAM effect is not present (may account for 5-10HP)
    - fuel was US 92 octane

    --

    Didn't do an 'actual' CS vs Modena in estimates but ofcourse the larger air flow meters are helping here and better factory calibration (factory mapping). In my experience of seeing 'nearly new' Stradale's (with low miles, barely run in!) on the dyno in comparison to basically 'stock' Modena's there was a differential of at least +30hp gain over a Modena's they ran against on the day.

    So lets start with ;

    Average stock 360 with Factory optional (CS) sports exhaust : 400hp (factory stock claimed)
    1. Actual figure with CS sports exhaust [with box bypass]: 400hp
    2. Average timed up belt job (-15hp to -30hp worst case): -10hp : 390hp
    3. Average plugs, coils, afm's, ok fuel, etc. (-10hp): 380hp @ crankshaft
    4. Actual power: 380hp @ crankshaft ( with a 15% drivetrain loss ) : ~325hp

    lets rework this a bit for this example..

    Good 'As New' stock CS with Stock CS exhaust : 425hp (factory stock claimed)
    1. Good Actual figure with CS exhaust [with box bypass]: 425hp (no losses from this)
    2. Good timed up belt job (-15hp to -30hp worst case): 0hp : 425hp (assuming no)
    3. Good plugs, coils, afm's, ok fuel, etc BUT [in this example probably not fully run in and running on poor octane fuel]. (so I'm still deducting -10hp): call it 410hp @ crankshaft
    4. Actual power: 410hp @ crankshaft ( with a 15% drivetrain loss ) : ~348hp
    **Note: they are using a 21% loss figure [which is pessimistic] not 15% so if adjusted it matches, we get ~323hp and they showed 320.4hp)
     
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  23. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    Just with these 2 example's you can begin to appreciate why the power figures people throw around are 'all over the place'..'.

    ~310rwhp for a stock Modena vs ~350rwhp for a stock CS... : A significant differential of +40rwhp is possible but again I want to reiterate so many variables need to be taken into account is not always that way.

    and then don't even discuss acceleration yet as we haven't even talked about weight!!!! (but that's an entirely different thread altogether)
     
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  24. KC360 FL

    KC360 FL Formula 3
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    Hat's off to you sir. Once again thanks for your time and sharing this knowledge. I have bookmarked this page-- and already have read every word.

    Regards, Ken
     
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  25. DiabloTerr

    DiabloTerr Formula Junior

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    Definitely thank you! Would you recommend running aftermarket air filters like K and N or BMC?
     
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  26. clean512

    clean512 Formula 3
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    I'm using ITG foam fliters
     
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  27. 02360spider

    02360spider Formula 3

    May 27, 2015
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    Pm sent I need more power in my life lol.

    Sent from my SM-G996U1 using Tapatalk
     
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