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your thoughts on 365 cooling issue please

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by rustytractor, Aug 18, 2013.

  1. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

    Mar 25, 2012
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    Russell Schacter
    #1 rustytractor, Aug 18, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    As mentioned in another thread, last week I bought a 365 GT4 2+2 which i drove home on Friday. It ran perfectly for 130 miles on the motorway with the temp needle straight up until I hit rush hour traffic then started to get hot. So hot in fact that I had to keep stopping for it to cool down so I could get it the last 20 miles home. I added around 2litres of water topping it up during this period.

    I have zero time to check the car over before I go on holiday on Tuesday but showed a few friends the car yesterday and noticed the sides of the the top hose were drawn in (it wasn't like it when I picked the car up). I also found that the rubber seal inside the low pressure rad cap (fitted to the main filler neck) was being drawn away from the cap down into the filler neck. Obviously some form of suction is going on inside the rad for these symptoms to occur.

    I ran the car with the main rad cap off and the water level went up and fell as what appeared to be air was expelled, I also noticed that the top hose was expanding and contracting (pulsing) as I gently revved the engine. As the temp rose to the normal position the hose started to return to its normal shape and the car didn't seem to get hotter than 195 (straight up on the gauge) but water then started to overflow from the still capless filler neck (I assume from expansion seeing that the cap was still off) so I refitted the cap but didn't run it for too much longer. Once pressurised the top hose looked normal.

    The car runs and drives perfectly, there's no water contamination in the oil or signs of oil in the water - that said the water in the rad had a mauve tinge to it, probably indicating that some leak kind of leak additive had been poured in at some point. There are brown water stains on the header tank (maybe from a failed pressure cap at some point ?) but it seems to be holding pressure and I'm fairly sure that when it was getting hot in traffic water was coming from the header tank overflow outlet.

    My questions are:

    1.Is the cooling fluid flow top entry/ bottom exit ?
    2. I understand that this is a circuit so in reality both occur but is the pump biased to pull or push fluid through the rad ?
    3.If the thermostat was stuck shut would the water pump cause this suction effect ? A stuck thermostat seems unlikely due to the 130 mile drive home on a warm day at 70-120mph with no real temp problem.


    I suspect that at the very least the rad may be partially blocked - all thoughts and suggestions gratefully accepted.
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  2. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

    Mar 25, 2012
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    Note newly rebuilt alternator in the photo - this expired on the initial drive home on Wednesday resulting in an aborted trip, then a drive from Birmingham to London in my sons car to get the alternator rebuilt followed by a trip back to refit it on Friday before attempting to drive my new purchase home again.

    Goodbye alternator problem, hello cooling issue............
     
  3. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

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    #3 rustytractor, Aug 18, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I'm pretty sure that the pressure cap on the expansion tank may be the problem here UNLESS they're supposed to be rusted to pieces and fall apart when removed !!

    Thanks Howard for your advice in pointing out the one thing I could easily check and kind offer to check the tank over for me while I'm sunning my gorgeous, lithe body on the beach in Marbella.
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  4. Ashman

    Ashman Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Oh, I don't know, maybe there is some life in that yet! :eek:

    If that is how the cap looks, how does the rest of the system look?
     
  5. rovexienus

    rovexienus Formula Junior
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    Jean-Michel Savary
    Hi,
    Forum post From Ferrari 400 Club regarding engine over-heating trouble shooting:

    Remove bypass thermostat - Suppression thermostat by-pass

    The text is in French but can be translated through Google Translate. In the case of this entry, it turned out that the thermostat by-pass was at fault, not opening when the liquid temperature reached the high point. As a consequence the coolant was always following the path engine to engine, not going through the radiator.
     
  6. theobordeaux

    theobordeaux Formula Junior

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    #6 theobordeaux, Aug 18, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2013
  7. vecchio59

    vecchio59 Karting

    Nov 25, 2011
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    Savona, NW Italy
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    Marco
    I'm having similar issues on my '73 365... Goes above 200F in traffic... I'll follow your suggestions, the cap does not look great...
    Does anybody know where to purchase a new one ? Euros pares ?

    Btw, I've been today at a local classics meeting... Nothing special, some Porsche, one 208 turbo... My F was the only 'acceptable' car, ie with the right number of cylinders 😏
     
  8. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

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    #8 rustytractor, Aug 18, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    You think I should try to clean it up and refit it ?

    I've removed the expansion tank which was full of water due to the broken piece from the cap sealing it shut. I pulled the busted bit out with a pair of pliers and drained the old entombed brown rusty water out. The tank itself seems ok (see pix) - not too rusty and doesn't seem to be perforated but time will tell when it comes back from trusty old Howard,

    The main rad seems fine but will need flushing, new caps and hoses etc.

    Hopefully the problem will be solved - who knows ????
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  9. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

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    I'll buy my bits from Superformance as they're very near where I live.

    Superformance ferrari dino ferrari v6 ferrari v12 specialists 308 246 206 fiat dino 355 328
     
  10. GT Jones

    GT Jones Formula Junior
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    I'm with you, John, that cap & tank suggests that the rad should be flushed out completely. It should run with a new cap but there's got to be a lot of poo in that system.
     
  11. vecchio59

    vecchio59 Karting

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  12. simonc

    simonc Formula Junior

    Nov 1, 2003
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    Are the two caps {or what is left of them :) } on the correct way round. The pressure cap should be on the expansion tank.
     
  13. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

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    They were fitted correctly, only the pressure cap on the expansion tank is crusty and has fallen apart.

    The non pressurised cap on the main rad is fine although the rubber seal has seem better days and will be replaced.

    I think that the expansion tank issue is indicative of a car which has been in long term ownership but has had minimal use with few long journeys. I know it's been checked over and had the oil changed regularly and been taken for the odd 10 mile drive but not used in real life traffic so never really got hot.

    I'll check the car over fully and change all the fluids, hoses etc before using properly.
     
  14. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

    Mar 25, 2012
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    Howard has hot tanked the expansion tank and it's toast - would leak like a sieve apparently !

    Superformance don't stock a 365 tank so I've ordered a 400/400i tank and new caps which is the same but with a different mounting bracket. Howard will swap the bracket over from the 365 so when I get back from sunning myself in Spain I'll be able to refit and see if the overheating issues resolved. How's that for a good friend

    Total parts cost is around £280 delivered and is a genuine F part. By the way, I get 10% disc from Superformance on most parts if it helps anyone.

    Will keep you all posted
     
  15. blkprlz

    blkprlz Formula 3

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    I wouldn't have even considered testing that tank, the insides of that is a sure sign of severe system corrosion. The Rad's got to be shot & at a minimum, recored...if not replaced. My suspicion is it's way past the Rad cap/header tank problem.
    And the water jacket/pump :eek: That thermostat has got to be clogged or glued shut.
    Also, when I mentioned that I drove around with the pressure cap on the rad for a while (on the thread http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/365-gt4-2-2-400-412/418392-ferrari-400i-cooling-system.html), I didn't mean around the block...it was switched & driven for a few months in the Florida heat with 'no change' :) This pressure cap switcharo engineering ?? will probably never get answered because no Ferrari engineer would be caught dead on Fchat. :eek: :eek: :eek:
     
  16. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

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    You're prob right about the rad but it seems logical to start with the obvious and work backwards. Theres a chance that the rad may be ok because there were no leaks from it on the 150 mile drive home but i agree it could be partially blocked. I'll drain the system, flush everything through and check the thermostat and flow before installing the new tank and doing any more mileage.

    Everything else looks fine externally and there's no sign of corrosion in the main rad. The expansion tank is (stupidly) made of steel so prone to corrosion in the way that the Ali components aren't - there's a chance that the rest of the system could be ok if I'm lucky but considering how my lucks been the past 12 months probably not !
     
  17. blkprlz

    blkprlz Formula 3

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    I believe they're brass, but it looks like it would be completely clogged up by the looks of the header tank (hence, the recoring). :(

    Let's pray that it is!!
    Maybe you could line the inners of the header tank with something like what they use for our aluminum fuel tanks. But really, if the cooling system maintenance is kept up, I would think the tank would last an awful long time.
     
  18. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

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    Well the last one lasted 39 years without being used much for the past 28 of those so I guess you're right. Like all my other cars I'll use this one - no point being pretty and not going out is there ?

    Will consider using tank sealant before installing expansion tank - anyone got any comments if this is a good or idea long term ?
     
  19. squidmark

    squidmark Karting

    Sep 11, 2011
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    Howard Dent
    As Russell has pointed out, I have the old and new header tanks to play with while he suns himself :)
    The old tank is steel, and as reported - is badly corroded because of that, even the filler neck has a hole in it (no, not the one you put water in)! The problem with the tank is compounded by it's function, merely acting as an expansion tank for the system, and I'll bet a lot of owners never looked in there to see if it has any liquid in at all. If you had a regularly changing level of water/antifreeze it would stay reasonably corrosion free, but short runs and limited use on a great many of these cars mean that the tank sees little 'action'. I reckon most people would remove the plain rad cap to check the water level (in the rad) and not get much further. Russell's new toy has been serviced but not driven much for nearly 30 years...
    There was virtually no sediment in the tank (all that you see is growth on the unprotected tank); and the only steel in the rest of the cooling system is the short main water pipes and the outside of the cylinder liners - let's not forget the car has been serviced regularly so assuming the antifreeze is to a suitable concentration it's quite likely all you can see is the result of 30 years damp storage (that's the inside of the tank, not the whole car!).
    The new tank (made by the original manufacturers), is now made of brass - so the problem is removed, simples!
    I haven't seen the car so it's difficult to be accurate, and whilst I wouldn't disagree with the cooling system flushing/hose replacement/thermostat change - I'd be trying it first with just the new tank, it can't do much harm now.
     
  20. blkprlz

    blkprlz Formula 3

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    Good point about the new brass tanks Howard, that partially explains why they're expensive. & it's good to hear that there was no sediment/corroded metals in it.
    My understanding is that the header tank is to be dry when everything is said & done, meaning after a good warm-up & drive, and cool-down afterwards. But we all know, not every drop in the header tank is going to get sucked back up into that rad...there's gonna be residual coolant left behind (so dry doesn't mean absolutely dry).
    & you can't see down into the header tank because the neck is off at an angle to prevent that. After the car cools down, I stick a tube in it & suck up any excess that the rad didn't. It's generally not much at all. & mine just turned 30 yrs. old (on average, less than 1K mi./yr.) but I don't have any of those issues, I question whether the 'whole' cooling system was serviced regularly :(
     
  21. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
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    This may be obvious but be sure the fans are running properly. The strange part of our story vs. all the serious solutions is that at cruising speed it cools okay but not in traffic. The 365's are significantly different w/r to fans, but be sure they are working properly.
    Ken
     
  22. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

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    Duly noted Ken. The fans cut in fine when the car is idling when hot but that's also when the overheating problem occurs.

    The fans will be checked over for operation but other than that they cut in and that the operating speed is ok there doesn't seem to be much else to check.

    This car is very original, probably due to spending 27 years with the previous owner but I've noticed that Superformance do a replacement fan/motor unit which has a 4-bladed fan instead of the 3-bladed unit which is fitted as standard to the car.

    Superformance ferrari dino ferrari v6 ferrari v12 specialists 308 246 206 fiat dino 355 328

    Has anyone fitted these and was there any cooling improvement ?
     
  23. blkprlz

    blkprlz Formula 3

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    The blade pitch & RPM has a great deal to do with how much air it can push or pull. The problem with Superformance is that when you click on the product, all it does is explode the pic, doesn't describe in greater detail/specs of the product. It's all in the details :D I need specs.

    I noticed that the 400's-412's made an improvement by adding a puller fan behind the rad., I'm thinkin' that the F engineers kind of knew about this problem :confused: Just suspecting.
    Adding one wouldn't hurt only after the entire system has been cleared of any issues.
     
  24. simonc

    simonc Formula Junior

    Nov 1, 2003
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    One other thought regarding the fans - are they wired the right way around?

    On my Boxer when I first got it the fans were blowing air forward rather than backwards over the radiator. Just a simple case of swapping two connections but a bit puzzling at first. It was only when I realised that some refurb work had recently been done around the fan area that it occurred to me to check - you expect the fans to blow the right way when you hear them kick in.

    I have a 400 also but I can't recall if the same error could be made with the 400 fans. It might be worth checking though. Just hold a piece of newspaper in front of the fans see if it is being sucked in towards the rad or not.
     
  25. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

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    The odds are that they're ok but it's an interesting thought, prob wouldn't have even considered checking that so thanks for planting the seed.
     

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