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365 GT4 2+2 Suspension Bushings

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by samsaprunoff, May 18, 2020.

  1. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Jun 8, 2004
    3,070
    Edmonton, AB Canada
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    Sam Saprunoff
    #1 samsaprunoff, May 18, 2020
    Last edited: May 18, 2020
    Good day All,

    This is continuation of my suspension rebuild/refresh/restore that I started last Summer:

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/365-gt4-2-2-suspension-pictures-request.602092/

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/365-gt4-2-2-bushing-removal.603461/#post-146709514

    Since then I have been doing a lot of behind the scenes work on the suspension and other areas. With regards to the suspension... I have been cleaning, checking, and preparing the various suspension pieces for the various finishes needed to look original. Some of the pieces had so much "patina" that it was really tough to determine that the finish originally was. Here I spent hours locating and examining pictures, e-mailing people, and comparing models of the same year in the hopes of finding a consensus to the finishes. The result was that I could not find general Ferrari consensus/pattern and it would appear that various finishes were done either in batches with other models and/or if the finish supplier gave them a deal. Given this data I simply used my best judgement and matched the finishes that seemed to make the most sense, but also ensure symmetry or consistency. I will follow up with pictures of all the pieces where they are a back... which will probably be in about 2 or so weeks. In the meantime I needed to go through my suspension parts to see what I needed, but also if I could find any issues.

    The 365 suspension bushings include both the metal to metal and the flamblock/rubber styles. The flamblock styles are only used on the rear inboard suspension arms, whereas, the rest are metal to metal. The flamblock style are easy in the sense, that you simply replace these... although given my past experience, removal was a lot of effort. The metal to metal are far more complicated and in fact removing some of the suspension outer bushing assemblies would be even more problematic. fortunately most of the metal to metal parts were fine, but I did have a few items that needed replacement. Some of these had significant wear/scrape marks. The best I can figure is that waster/moisture found its way past the various outer rubber seals and given how long the car sat, rust developed. As the car eventually moved about the rust caused the bushing assemblies to become stuck... and the result was the various pieces wore into each other and so replacing these were the only option.

    With that said there are pieces that are designed to wear (split bushings and a thrust washer) and so these should be replaced. You can order these from the usual Ferrari suppliers, but I found that these parts are Industry standard parts and so you can order them from any bearing supplier. I was clued into this by a previous thread started by Arvid where Bill responded with some great info:

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/front-upper-wishbone-bushing-400gt.565903/#post-145718002

    Having compared Bill's great info to my car's bushings I found that my split bushings were longer (Thanks again to Bill and Arvid for their assistance!). When I removed my bushings I was lucky enough to find the bushing part numbers and so I used these numbers to find the appropriate parts. I ended up ordering the all of the split bushings and thrust washers from a supplier in Europe, as my local suppliers did not have stock and/or required a large minimum order.

    On my car the split bushings were:
    Front: MB 20 30 DU (20mm id x 23mm od x 30mm long)
    Rear: MB 20 25 DU (20mm id x 23mm od x 25mm long)

    Many manufacturers make these split bushings and so I ended up using an alternative part, as the original parts made by GGB) were out of stock.

    As for pricing... The various Ferrari places wanted around $ 6 USD per bushing and I bought mine from anywhere from $0.45 USD to $0.90 USD each... which is a decent saving since one needs 16 of each.

    Also, I decided to use the original Teflon coated split bushings as opposed to versions that are not Teflon coated. The reason is that the Teflon coated bushings are designed to not be lubricated. This is great, as lubricating them periodically in the future would be a real challenge when the suspension is all assembled. As for not lubricating them... my guess is that the Teflon is more than able to provide the low friction need between the moving surfaces and adding a lubricant could attract dirt and/or dry out causing wear to the Teflon surface. However using the proper lubricant upon assembly would probably not be an issue. Lastly, since the originals used Teflon I figured I could do no worse to use what was originally installed.

    The thrust washers are used on a number of Ferraris (308s, BB, etc) and is part number WC 20 DU and I paid $0.84 USD each as compared to about $8.50 from the suppliers ( I needed 16 of these as well and bought extra for future use on my BB)

    I also bought a few other bearings (about 1/2 to 1/3 the price here in Canada) as well. Shipping was relatively cheap ($40) and was fast... about 4 days from Europe to delivery here in Canada.

    Below are some pictures of the bushings, etc.

    Cheers,

    Sam










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  2. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day All,

    As I examined other parts I found that the outer stepped washers showed wear and/or a bit of damage. These washers should not wear and should "float" with the suspension travel. As I mentioned, I suspect that since the inner bushing was stuck that the washer surface was rubbing against the inner bushing end causing it to wear a groove into the stepped washer surface. These washers are not hardened and so I could have polished the wear marks out, but decided to simply replace them. The European Ferrari suppliers were closed and/or had no stock during the Covid-19 shut down and so my machinist buddy was enlisted to make these... They are pretty simple to make and my buddy had material on hand that he could use. Be advised that the overall washer thickness is different between the front and rear and so take note when you remove them (on my car the fronts were thinner).

    Once I get these I will take all of my suspension pieces for plating... doing it in one batch will ensure the same plating result (color, etc).

    Attached are a few pics of these step washers showing the wear and the damage on one (which is a bit of a mystery).

    Cheers,

    Sam

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  3. ricar116

    ricar116 Formula Junior

    Aug 2, 2005
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    Rick Carr
    Not a casual event. Nice work!
     
  4. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day Rick,

    As I recall you went through the same process and even more on your 365 and so you know my "pain" :)

    Thanks for the compliment. Now that most of the nasty stuff is done I am getting excited receiving all the newly refreshed and restored pieces, as the car should be resting on its own wheels very soon.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
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  5. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
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    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
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    Ken Battle
    Sam
    It is very interesting how your older car has so many metal bushes versus the 400i (and I believe 400). The only all metal suspension ush on my 1984 400i is the front upper control arm inner bushes. They are made up of 3-4 pieces with rubber dust seals. Everything else is Frambloc or ball joints.

    Your car (when all new and working) must be very stiff feeling and maybe squeaky?! My first race car was a Lotus Super 7 and replace most/all of the rubber bushes with bronze "oilite" or solid Teflon bushes. The feel of that car was REAL tight but much improved on the track. I even offset one pair of bronze bushes to use for camber adjustment which the car did not have.

    Good luck and keep up the good work and posts.
    Ken
     
  6. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Jun 8, 2004
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    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Ken,

    Indeed, the 365 GT4 2+2 looks to have been one of the last models to have a large portion of the suspension being using the metal to metal style bushings. As I mentioned the only flamblock style are on the rear inboard suspension pickups... all the rest are metal to metal. Interestingly, I checked the 365 BB parts manual and it looks to be more 400 like as opposed to the 365 GT4 2+2 setup. I wonder why the change? Was the the setup too harsh or was Ferrari just trying to save $$$ o parts and installation labor? Who knows...

    As for the ride... I cannot comment, as I have yet to drive the car. I have only driven it on and off the trailer and so no real feeling for how it was riding. Given my suspension tear down I can see that it would have been squeaky for sure given that the inner most bushings were seized...and that the outer step washers have wear grooves on them. That being said I suspect that the suspension should be very tight and crisp given the setup and design. Hopefully later this Summer I can actually drive it :) and if so I can comment further.

    Thanks for the encouragement to continue the battle!

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
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