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365 GT4 2+2 Torque tube Removal

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by samsaprunoff, Apr 12, 2020.

  1. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Sam Saprunoff
    #1 samsaprunoff, Apr 12, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2020
    Good day All,

    In my continuing Suspension and brake refresh efforts (chassis 18775), I had a bit of time to remove the differential and torque tube. Although removing these components are not necessary for a suspension refresh, they looked somewhat weathered from time... along with the undercarriage... and so I thought it best to fresh my car's under-neath-y bits.

    The differential, torque tube, and the drive shaft has to be removed as a complete assembly, as the only place to disconnect the drive shaft is at the transmission. Removing the differential and torque tube is straightforward: remove the drive axles, the two drive shaft bolts at the transmission end via the inspection hole, the eight nuts securing the tube to the transmission, and the two differential mount nuts. I had already removed the emergency brake cable, etc and so access was plentiful.

    The top two tube-to-transmission securing nuts have reduced access, but was not too tough with a 2-foot socket extension with a universal joint. I have seen other threads where some needed to access these top two nuts via the console, but I did not need to do this. Also, be advised that you need to use a thin-wall socket, as there is limited clearance around these tube-to-transmission nuts.

    Removing the differential mount nuts reveal a "slot" that allows the differential to slide backwards... thus allowing the assembly to be separated from the transmission. Separating the assembly took a bit of effort as I needed to ensure that the transmission and torque tube were parallel. To do this I use one jack under the rear of the transmission and the other under the differential. Once parallel all it took as a simple pull/pry on the assembly and it separated without drama. Removing of the assembly took a bit longer, as I wanted a controlled descent of the assembly. Since I was working alone I used my lift and jack under the differential to lower the care/assembly to a point where the jack was at its bottom. From here I placed some blocks so that the differential would not "tip" over and then raised my car. This worked perfectly and the entire assembly came out without any Drama.

    Overall the assembly is not overly heavy, but a bit cumbersome to carry. To make it easier to move around I simply modified some wheel dollies as shown in the pictures.

    All in all it took me about 2 hours for this task and this was at a moderate pace with some breaks to take pictures. I would have taken a bit longer had I needed to remove the drive axles, etc.

    Cheers,

    Sam

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  2. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day All,

    Here are some additional pics of the differential and torque tube disassembled.

    There is a bearing where the two tube halves meet. At first I thought it was damaged, but later realized it was not and that it is a self-aligning bearing. I have never seen one before and what is different about it is that the centre portion articulates (see picture). The original bearing is marked AJL30 and is made in Italy, but the manufacurer name is missing. The bearing is 62mm OD x 30mm ID x 20 mm Thick and is pretty standard and is available from many bearing manufacturers (F-A-G, SKF, etc) with prices varying from about $40 US to $65 US or one can purchase one from the usual Ferrari suppliers.

    Now that I have all the pieces apart I will be cleaning, painting, powder coating (torque tubes), and plating the hardware as needed. All of the seals looked to have been weeping and so all will be replaced. Even if they weren't I still would replace them given their age... and that I have easy access to them.

    That is all for now. I will post more once I get the various pieces cleaned up and refreshed.

    Cheers,

    Sam

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  3. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
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    Sam
    Thanks for description and pics. I puled diff and tube because I believed my center bearing was noisy. You did well to get it out in 2 hours; it certainly took me longer. Those two bolts on top of tube to tranny certainly took a lot of patience and time. I think I used about 6 different tools to get tiny degrees of rotation on each. Getting them back in went easier. Two things I did differently. I had a transmission jack to hold the diff;those jacks have advantage of belts to hold diff in place which may be more useful when re-installing to line up slotted bolts. Plying did not free up the diff to move back. I ended up buy a cable "come along" hooked on rear of chassis and cable strapped around tube, if I remember correctly. Once it budged it went the rest of the way easily. (Buying a tool like that for a one-off job always turns out the same; I don't know how I did without it for so long! I've used it for multiple tasks since.) I also used my lift to lower and raise car onto the tranny jack which has a short one. I also replace the rear bearing and seal in the transmission adaptor (TH400).

    Good work and send pics of all the cleaned up and prepared parts before installing.
    Ken
     
  4. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day Ken,

    You are most welcome!

    As for my removal time... remember that my 2-hours to remove did not take into account that I already had the drive axles removed which can be nasty. Secondly, since my suspension, etc was out already everything had easy and direct access. Also, my car is a 365 which has a manual transmission, whereas, I think yours is a 400 with an automatic transmission. Manual transmissions tend to be smaller and so it is possible that access within the torque tube tunnel may have be better and thus may explain the straightforward access to the upper mounting nuts. Lastly, before I started I was hopped up on a few espressos and so I was ready for battle :) One thing I did note was that the tube-to-transmission nuts where really tight and took an 24" breaker bar on my extension to loosen the nuts. Given the force required to loosen these nuts, I could see it being a challenge to do this with even a 1/2" drive rachet.

    As for the transmission jack... I will see if anyone of my friends has one that I can borrow, as I can see this being really helpful during reinstallation. If anything I will rig up a base plate that I can affix to my floor jack. That being said I will not have to worry about this for some time, as I am going to leave the assembly out to make it easier to remove the engine/transmission. However, before I move on to the engine, etc I will finish up the suspension, brakes, etc first and will certainly post up pics and any other nuances that may be of interest to our group.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  5. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

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    Ah! Yes, the 5-speed would make a difference for those bolts. I had to use box and open end wrenches for most of the turns and they were not "frozen" to start.

    WOW!! You have a much bigger project than I would take on. I'm sure glad my car is running fine and my annual R&R's keep it that way.
    Ken
     
  6. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day Ken,

    If you had to use combo wrenches to remove those nuts, then I can feel your pain. As I mentioned earlier, I found that the clearance between the nut to the surrounding torque tube to be really small and that I had to use a narrow walled socket. Given this lack of clearance and the area in general, I can see why you could only move the nuts a small amount with a wrench... that would have taken you a while to remove even the easier access ones. I guess I was "lucky" that I had to do this on a manual transmission car!

    As for my project... yup... it is a pretty large project. I originally intended to fresh 18775's paint and the interior and perform a bunch of services on to allow me to drive and enjoy the car as a daily driver. However, as I tackled the paint and interior I realized more and more that some items could not be simply cleaned, but needed more of a restoration or in some cases I had to remanufacture items (door speakers, seat grills, etc). When I started to dig into the mechanical side of the car I found items that needed even more attention given the many years 18775 sat. My suspension bushings were age and heat fatigued and so I decided to sort them out. When I removed the brake calipers I found only 1-2 brake cylinder pistons working per caliper... and so a brake refresh needed to be done... and so on and so on. Thus, given how many things needed attention it just made sense to do as much as I can so that the car will look and run the way it was designed and in the process should provide me years of relatively trouble free driving. My end goal is the same in that I want to use the car as a daily driver and so my restoration efforts will be tempered as such.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  7. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day all,

    I found that the Centre Bearing is made by RIV, but also a cross reference table of other bearing manufacturers that produce an equivalent bearing. I have attached a copy of this table for the benefit of others who may wish to replace their Centre bearing (Ferrari Part 104990). I have highlighted the row that matches up to the one on my car.

    Cheers,

    Sam
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  8. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Rookie
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    Fantastic post, great information and pictures! Thanks for taking the time to post.
     
  9. It's Ross

    It's Ross Formula 3

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    Sam, Where are you buying your brake parts?
    I am performing a similar refresh on mine. Planning to order re-manned BMW calipers, split them and insert the spacers. The seal between the halves I discovered is not an o-ring as expected but a flat 10 x 6 x 2mm thick rubber seal ring. Are you planning a similar tack? Found a source for those seals?
    who's brake pads are you using?
    I've ordered my bushings from MIE, what are you using?
    Shocks will likely be going to True Choice racing in Ohio but I've heard they can be frightfully slow. Any experience to share?
     
  10. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
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    #10 raemin, Apr 13, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2020
    Viton seals : http://www.ferrari400parts.com/ferrari400partsshop.php?view=productPage&product=63&category=1
    Note that a few shops do stock the Ferrari calipers cheaper than the BMW ones (~315€).

    As for the brake pads, same question.
     
  11. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day Ken,

    I did not realize that you posted a thread on your efforts ... I was searching for some other items and found your thread and so I am posting the link to it here for completeness sake:

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/drive-shaft-bearing-and-rear-trans-seal-bearing.430100/

    For some reason I must have missed your original thread, as there is some good info within it.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  12. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day Jim,

    You are most welcome! These days I take a lot of pictures, as my time to work on the car is sporadic at best... and so my memory tends to fade, but (digital) pics do not.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  13. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    #13 samsaprunoff, Apr 13, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2020
    Good day Ross,

    I reviewed a number of past threads and found a bunch of great info within them:

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/rebuild-rear-brake-calipers.449537/

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/55027-brakes.519877/

    I knew I was going to be rebuilding my brakes for some time and so I acquired the parts from a variety of sources. For the rear calipers, Gary (Part Time on here) was kind enough to buy Ate rear brake rebuild kits for me when he did his (see thread above). Arvid's thread above also had some great info and from here I sourced a a high quality (German) Ate Front brake rebuild kits from a UK supplier. I will post up the name of the supplier once I find it. Gary did what you did in that he bought some inexpensive Cardone calipers and salvaged what parts he needed. I know I could do this too, but my calipers, pistons, etc were fine and so I thought I would simply replate and rebuild them. The worst case is that I can also buy the Cardone calipers and use whatever I need from them.

    As for the caliper spacer seals... I am pretty sure they were included in the rebuild kits I bought. I will know for sure when I start rebuilding the calipers which should be starting in a few weeks. I already have the caliper's disassembled, cleaned, and prepped for the plater. I am hoping to drop these off this week along with other hardware that needs to be plated. However, the schedule for this is somewhat dynamic given the Covid-19 issues we are all facing.

    As for brake pads... as above I did some research and found some tech details on the pads and then compared them to a number of manufacturers. I then purchased 3 or 4 sets and was going to see how they compared to my originals (my originals have little wear and so I will use them as a sizing reference). Some of the pads I bought were supplier close-outs and so I got them fairly cheap... like $20 for a set and so no real pocketbook damage if they do not work out. I did do a quick comparison and found the only real differences with the various pads was the actual thickness. I will do a more thorough review once I get to that stage and will post up my findings.

    As for bushings... I had acquired bushings, ball joints, etc from some suspension kits I purchased a few years ago. These were not entirely complete and so the remainder of the bushings (shock, shock rubbers, etc) I ordered all from SuperFormance. I decided to stick to OEM rubber bushings, as I have not heard overly positive long term things from polyurethane bushings. Since my car is more of a cruiser than a performance car I felt the OEM rubber would be fine and given that the originals lasted as long as they did I felt that the replacements would be equally long lasting.

    As for shocks... My original load levelers are fine... or so I think ... and so they will be soda basted, painted, with new Koni winged decals like the originals. The other shocks will be rebuilt. I researched the various companies doing the rebuilds and heard mixed reviews. I reached out to a few f-chat members (Peter) that rebuilt their own and given our discussion I will give it a try myself. If I do this I will certainly create a thread on this project.

    I hope the above helps!

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  14. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day Raemin,

    As mentioned in my response to Ross, I have a few brake pad sets, but have yet to formally compare and test them for fitment. Once I finish rebuilding my calipers and get them mounted I will post up which ones I will end up using.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
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  15. It's Ross

    It's Ross Formula 3

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    Thanks Sam.
    I've ordered re-man calipers today and will be ordering pads from "Brake Performance".
    So, did you have trouble removing the rotors? My rears were stuck hard on the hub, a very small amount of corrosion made removal a bear. It took a puller in concert with penetrating oil, a very large dead blow hammer and lots of bad words to remove mine.
    Moving to the fronts today, maybe tomorrow, maybe when the parts come.
     
  16. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

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    Sam
    Have your front shocks leaked fluid? If not, why rebuild? These Konis are adjustable to compensate for any wear. Adjustment is the usual method for Konis, you compress fully and rotate shaft to lock into a grove in base. Rotate clockwise and COUNT TURNS, then rotate counter-clockwise to determine total number of turns from full hard to full soft (you should feel a dramatic difference). Mine had about 5 turns from full soft to full full stiff. I reset mine 1/2 turn stiffer than they were at start; that was with about 50K miles on car.

    It appears you are spending LOTS of money so if you want to rebuild, go for it! If they have leaked a rebuild is essential.
    Ken
     
  17. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day Ross,

    You are most welcome! Ensure you post up the results of your re-man calipers!

    Removing of the rotors was not too bad. For the rears I did need to buy a bigger tri-puller, as the few I had were just not big enough for the job. However, remember that I have Centre-lock wheels, whereas, I believe your car has studs. The rears were definitely more trouble, but with a beefer puller and elbow grease they came off with little drama.

    Thankfully my rotors are nowhere close to the minimum thickness spec, as replacement rotors for a 365 are hard to find and can be pricey. Interestingly, I have a spare set for my Boxer (which are relatively cheap!) and when I compared the two the 365 Rotors have a slightly more pronounced offset. I will be getting the rotor surface's lightly machined so they are true. It would be a big disappointment to put it all together and find my rotors were warped. Sadly, finding a local place to machine rotors was proving to be difficult. It would seem that rotor or drum machining is uncommon these days, as I suspect brake shops simply replace the rotors/drums with inexpensive OEM ones. I did find a shop and will be taking the rotors to them soon.

    Anyway, good luck with your brake refresh and remember to post up some before and after pics!

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  18. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day Ken,

    My shocks look fine with no signs of leaking. However, my car has easily sat for over 20 years and so I am concerned that the internal seals could have degraded because of time and lack of use. When I bought 18775 I really could not take it for a real drive on open roads, given the car's lack of use.... This is a blessing in a way, as it turned out I had very little braking ability given the frozen caliper pistons I found as I worked on the brakes. Consequently, I have no real idea if the shocks are behaving as they should. Secondly, if I do discover that the shocks are somewhat knackered after cleaning and reinstalling them, then I will need to remove and reinstall the suspension (fronts for sure)... Thirdly, if I can find the seals (which I am pretty sure I can) then rebuilding them would not be too tough... and this I am referring to the non-load leveling shocks. The load leveling shocks I will do as you say and see how well or bad they work. If anything I can easily deal with these later, as removal/reinstallation is not too difficult.

    As to the costs... Quite honestly, I have not spent a ton of $$$ on the car. The largest expense to date was the interior which was about $13K. The original interior leather was severely heat, Sun, and age damaged and truly was beyond fixing. Each time you sat in the seats the threading would snap, etc. The Interior and exterior rubber, etc was also not very costly... I think I spent less than $400 for all these rubber pieces. Paint was also not overly expensive, as I did the entire prep myself. The paint is definitely not show quality, but a very nice driver level (glass in, but painted inside doors, etc). I wanted this level, as I simply want to drive and enjoy the car and not worry about the occasional blemish that occurs from use. The suspension, brakes, etc have not been costly. Parts are not cheap, but in most cases not overly expensive either. The real big cost would be labor, as a lot of time is consumed with the actual work, but more so with all the resto level efforts like documenting, detailing, picture taking, researching, plating hardware, etc. Doing all this resto work really enforces why leading restorers charge what they do,,, it is a ton of work! I really wish I would have better documented my time just for my own curiosity. However, since I work on the car sporadically and intermittently it is tough for me to keep a running tally. Perhaps I will do this on my next car ... assuming I get this one done before I get too old :)

    Cheers,

    Sam
     

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