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slow windows

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by robertinOK, Dec 24, 2003.

  1. robertinOK

    robertinOK Karting

    Dec 5, 2003
    208
    Stillwater, Oklahoma
    Full Name:
    Robert Wakeling
    This might very well be an old subject on here, but both my 308 and boxer have painfully slow window operation...especially in the cold. Is there a good fix?
     
  2. Chiaro_Slag

    Chiaro_Slag F1 Veteran

    Oct 31, 2003
    7,731
    CA
    Full Name:
    Jerry
    Do you know how to search the old site? That would be a good place to check - I remember seeing many threads regarding this there - None that I can remember being an "easy" fix.
     
  3. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Mar 31, 2002
    1,726
    Roswell, Georgia
    Full Name:
    Charles
    A) look up at the Parts and Service link at top of this page

    B) scroll to the bottom of this page and there is a link to get to old archives

    C) first thing to go is remove the old motors and disassemble them--the old grease that teh italians used hardens almost to a rock solid over the years--you will have to chissel it out
     
  4. Doc

    Doc Formula Junior

    Sep 13, 2001
    886
    Latham, New York
    Full Name:
    Bill Van Dyne
    Before you go so far as to remove the motors, try this: Remove the door panels and lube every pulley/cable in sight ( I used spray lithium grease). Disconnect all of the electrical connections between the switches and motots and spray electrical contact cleaner into each one. I also brushed some Stabilant- 22 onto each connector. On my 308 , I did the switches, a connector under that little change compartment on the driver side dash, and the connection to the motor, just behind the speakers. In my case, it made all the difference in the world. My driver side window was so slow that it would stop halfway up. After the cleaning and lubing it's almost like new. Of course, it could be the calcified grease w/i the motors or the motors themselves. But, try this as a first measure and it might work.Good luck.
     
  5. Steve King

    Steve King F1 Rookie

    Feb 15, 2001
    4,353
    NY
    Last month I did the fuse block conversion to glass fuses and both windows now work easier. In fact the pass. side motor turns faster than the window can go down in the tracks so now I need to take it apart over the winter and lub up everything. So I would look at the fuse block to to make sure that you are getting full voltage to the motors. That coupled with relub of the cables and pullies may do it. If not you will need to open up the motor asm and clean it and relub it. I may do this but am not looking forward to playing with the cables.
     
  6. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Veteran
    Sponsor Owner

    Sep 3, 2002
    5,052
    Toronto / SoCal
    Full Name:
    Rob C.
    Before taking everything apart, take the door skins off and spray the mechanism as recommended. Once this is done connect a battery directly to the window motor terminals. If the window is fast then look at the electrics, if not, take the assembly apart and check for hardened grease. Don't take the window apart unless it is totally necessary because it is a really lousy job that I do not wish even upon my enemies.
     
  7. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
    Owner Consultant

    May 5, 2001
    6,951
    Groton, MA
    Full Name:
    Verell Boaen
    If the fuse panel rework, general cleaning/lube of the cables/pulleys & spraying the window guides with silicone isn't sufficient, the next step is to clean the window gear drive system. I posted the following"Slow Power Window Service Procedure" in the archives a while back:

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/256120/114996.html

    You may want to replace the cables themselves. New 1/16" Stainless Steel braided cable is available from Sears Hdw & most other Hdw stores. It's nice & limp & won't fight back the way the original cable will. Get the ~1/4" long crimp-on ferrules to attach it to the window drive. There's a good post w/lots of photos showing how the drive pulley comes apart so the new cable can be inserted somewhere in the old archives. Couldn't find it with quick search tho.

    The LAST thing to do is Mike Tarrant's relay modification that provides a low resistance path to the battery. It's in the 'Parts & Service' section at the top of this page:

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/partsandservice/slowwindowfix.htm
    CAUTION:
    DO NOT do the relay mod w/o first doing the Slow Power Window Service Procedure. The stock wiring's relatively high resistance may well be protecting your window drive motors from burning out due to the severe overload being imposed on them by the dried-out grease in the drive mechanism.
     
  8. Wayne 962

    Wayne 962 Formula Junior

    Nov 27, 2003
    407
    My windows are slow too. I just bought some high power (supposedly) window motors on eBay for $150/pair. I figure that when I take off the door panels and lube everything, I'll just replace the motors while I'm in there. Hopefully the 40 second window climb will end...

    I agree with the other posts though - the slow windows are both a sign of worn out motors *and* stuck window mechanisms...

    -Wayne
     
  9. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
    Owner Consultant

    May 5, 2001
    6,951
    Groton, MA
    Full Name:
    Verell Boaen
    Wayne,
    I hate to bear bad news, but:

    1) The window motors are almost never 'worn out'. In fact, since the FChat started & also in the Flist I don't ever remember anyone reporting a worn out window motor after they've done the window drive service.

    2) There were a couple of cases a year or 2 ago where the new 'high power' window motors weren't as powerful/fast as the original motors & the owner went back to the orig. motors.

    Sorry I forgot to mention this in my earlier posts.
     
  10. robertinOK

    robertinOK Karting

    Dec 5, 2003
    208
    Stillwater, Oklahoma
    Full Name:
    Robert Wakeling
    Hi Every one...a big thanks to you all: looks like I'll be taking the door panels off...
     
  11. MRFOTOS

    MRFOTOS Karting

    May 26, 2003
    232
    Maui, Hi
    Wayne, let us know if the replacement motors work for your car.
    it might be an EZ fix ?
    -Mark
     
  12. joeyy

    joeyy Karting

    Nov 11, 2003
    190
    long island
    Full Name:
    joe
    hey guys b-4 you go taking things apart try this. it is very basic but i found that my rubber gasket was the cause of the slow windows on my 308. i simply rubbed a little rubber conditioner on them and the friction was much less and they worked just fine after that. you will have to do this periodically.
     
  13. F308 MAN

    F308 MAN F1 Rookie

    Jan 19, 2004
    2,907
    Isle of Man
    Full Name:
    Dave S
    The cable and soldered nipple (one only) have parted company on my 308 window operating drives...... I have dismantled the cable spool.....upon inspection, I need to replace the cable due to fraying......I too have tried unsuccessfully, to search for the above mentioned thread.......Does anybody know of it's whereabouts ?.....I have the original cable length but the number of cable turns around the spool, before refitting would be most useful.
    Can anybody help ?
     
  14. Scotty

    Scotty F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 31, 2003
    4,897
    Oregon
    Full Name:
    Scotty Ferrari
    I've spoken with several folks about this (I am casually looking for a 30/328). The word I heard was that the felt/fuzzy strip wear out, allowing the window to ride along the rubber, which provides significant friction. A short term fix has already been suggested (lube/condition the rubber)--replacing the felt (assuming my info is good) may be another. Everything else suggested sounds very reasonable as well.
     
  15. Gianluca

    Gianluca Formula Junior

    May 6, 2003
    349
    Centreville, Virgini
    Full Name:
    Gianluca Chegai
    I would suggest to first clean the gear box. All the other remedies may help and all together would make the windows much better. The biggest problem seems to be, however, the semi-cured epoxy consistency of the old grease.

    I found it easier to remove the whole gear assembly and rewing new cable than try to work directly on the car (bad position close to the floor).

    I had a quasi-detailed explanation about replacing the cable with 1/16" ss cable from sears but I can find it anymore in the old archives.

    Will keep on looking, though.
     
  16. jselevan

    jselevan Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2003
    1,849
    My experience with 5 F-cars over the years is that it has nothing to do with the motor or the grease. It has always been friction between the glass and felt channel. Certainly reducing resistance in the electrical circuit will increase voltage to the motor, but the main problem is friction.

    A simple check is to remove the door panel and water insulating rubber sheet, exposing the window, channels and cable.

    Next, loosen the 10 mm screw holding the bottom of the channels (both channels) to the door. This will allow them to spring away from the glass into a position where they are not forced against the glass. Now operate the window. My experience is that the window will now rise and fall quickly with the motor drive.

    If the window now operates normally, simply readjust the felt channel, gently moving it to provide proper alignment, and when accomplished, tighten the 10mm bolt. Job done.

    Jim S.
     
  17. F308 MAN

    F308 MAN F1 Rookie

    Jan 19, 2004
    2,907
    Isle of Man
    Full Name:
    Dave S
    I JUST NEED TO KNOW THE NUMBER OF TURNS OF CABLE AROUND THE SPOOL WHEN THE WINDOW IS IN THE UP POSITION.
    CAN ANYBODY HELP ???
    thanx, david
     
  18. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
    Owner Consultant

    May 5, 2001
    6,951
    Groton, MA
    Full Name:
    Verell Boaen
    As the spool turns, wire is unwound from one side of the spool & wound up on the other side. Thus, the number of turns around the spool is constant & independent of the window's position. The pulley is grooved. Start wrapping in one direction until all of the grooves are full. As long as you start with all the grooves full, you should have the right number of turns. I don't remember the exact number of turns, but believe it was 4 or 5. Sorry, but it's been several years since I last did a 308 window.

    Think this thread may have the exact count buried in it:

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/256120/114996.html

    Gianluca's thread may also help:
    http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/305954.html

    For some reason I also remember that the spool turns exactly 2.75 turns to move the window fully up or down.

    Hope this helps.

    BTW, how did you take the cable spool apart to insert the new cable ends? I never quite figured that out & it's been bugging me for years!
     
  19. F308 MAN

    F308 MAN F1 Rookie

    Jan 19, 2004
    2,907
    Isle of Man
    Full Name:
    Dave S
    Wow ! thanks Verell ....... the cable spoll splits after removing a very primitive, wire section, circlip.....off comes a very snug fit plain washer, and then the large conical pressure washer.....with a gentle tap on the shaft, the two plastic type components (the wire spool and the crown gear) part company, thus exposing the blind side of the wire retaining crimps (in ginas' case, soldered ends.
    It is not rocket science to deduce the direction each end of the cable hits the spool ..... all the clues are there.
    What I have found that helps is to simply draw on the metal, inside door panel, the position of the spool and the route of the cable around the pulleys.
    Thanks Verell, you are a star !
    Cheers for now, David
     
  20. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
    Owner Consultant

    May 5, 2001
    6,951
    Groton, MA
    Full Name:
    Verell Boaen
    Ummm, THANKS!
    I had the wire circlip off, but couldn't get the shaft to move with just thumb pressure. Was afraid of the 20 odd year old plastic shattering so didn't tap it.

    Also thought the 2 washers were one piece, guess they were just glued together by that taffy like grease! Probably would have come apart if I'd soaked the spool in citrus solvent for a couple of days.
     
  21. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

    Jun 20, 2003
    6,683
    North shore, MA
    Full Name:
    THE Birdman
    I took some pictures of the process of cleaning the hardened grease and they are here:

    http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21818

    My experience was that removing the hardened grease and re-lubing the motor's "gearbox" made a big difference. I never adjusted the "track" that the window rides in but I wish I had now! I'll bet that both of those procedures together would be more than enough to make the window like new.

    Birdman
     
  22. Gianluca

    Gianluca Formula Junior

    May 6, 2003
    349
    Centreville, Virgini
    Full Name:
    Gianluca Chegai

    Verell,
    I feel so stupid for not taking pictures and for not remebering. I keep on thinking that there is like a retaining ball inside the shaft or something like that. I do remember, however, that I had a hard time at first until I discovered the "trick". After that it was super easy to remove that shaft. I do remember also that, after taking the circlip off, I pressed the shaft out and it indeed came out but then I discovered that the shaft slips right in but "something" must be done for it to do so. (I keep on thinking about the little ball). This is driving me so crazy that I may pull the thing apart just to remember. ( It is like when one just can remeber the name of "that" actor...)
     
  23. miketarrant

    miketarrant Rookie

    Jan 9, 2004
    37
    I can't remember how may years ago I posted the Relay Window Fix but my Mondial windows still go faster than a friends 599.

    I do agree that clean and lube should be done as well but I doubt their will be the major improvement you are looking for just from this. Be warned, the relay fix is a non-trivial task but it does work.
     

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